Remand Prisoners: Working Party Proposals (Hansard, 7 November 1988)

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the chairman of the Criminal Law Committee of the Law Society wrote to my right honourable friend the Home Secretary on 18th October to inform him that the meeting to which the noble Lord refers has taken place, and that the Law Society would be making formal representations to him in due course. We have not yet received them. I am glad to say that the action which my right honourable friend has taken has resulted in a drop of 500 in the number of prisoners in police cells over the past two weeks.

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, is the Minister aware that at the last count which I managed to obtain from the Home Office for Friday last, 4th November, the number of prisoners in cells—both court cells and police station cells—was 1,314? Is he further aware that of that number 1,261 were male and 53 were female, and that 960 males and 45 females were in the South-East?
The Minister has referred to the Law Society letter. Is he aware that because of the urgency of the situation the letter called for a working party because of the burdens being cast upon the police and the legal profession, as well as the inhumanity of these remand prisoners being held in cells? Has he nothing further to say?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the figures which the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon, has given are of course entirely correct, as they would be since he managed to obtain them from my department. I congratulate him on his prudence in his accuracy.
477 He asks me whether there is anything else that I wish to add. Of course, the overcrowding in police cells is a cause of great anxiety. Much of that was caused by the industrial action that took place whereby over 1,000 prisoners were locked out of prison. The point that the noble Lord makes about overcrowding is a very relevant one. I am bound to tell him, as he asked me whether I had anything else to say, that last March my right honourable friend the Home Secretary announced new measures to produce more prison places. Over 2,600 new places have been provided so far including two new prisons which have been opened in the last two months. A further 1,400 places will be produced by April next year. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed last week to spend an extra £370 million over the next two years. This will result in 28 new prisons since 1984 which will have been provided by the mid-1990s. Of these, eight prisons have already been opened. Since 1979, 6,000 new places have been provided. By 1995, 25,000 new prison places will have been provided.
As the noble Lord asked me whether I had anything else to say, perhaps I may add that the expenditure on prisons is already more than double that which was spent in 1979.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is not part of the answer to this recurrent and chronic problem closing the gap in time between committal and arraignment, which would reduce the necessity of keeping people on remand for so long?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, my noble and learned friend is quite right. That is one of the options that is available.

§ Baroness Seear
My Lords, based on previous statistics, can the Minister tell us how many of those people now held on remand are not expected to receive a custodial sentence?
The noble Earl has told us how much money is going into building new prisons. Can he tell us how much money is going into building more bail hostels so that people on remand will not be held in prisons?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I do not have the figures for which the noble Baroness asks. I shall see whether they can be obtained and I shall write to her.

§ Lord Harris of Greenwich
My Lords, the noble Earl will recall that we had two debates this summer on this question and on the relationship between remands in custody of mentally ill offenders and the overall situation as described by the noble Lord, Lord Mishcon. Does he recall that he assured me subsequently that he was raising with the DHSS certain matters concerning the question of mentally ill offenders kept in wholly unsatisfactory conditions in police cells? What has been the result of his approach to the DHSS?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Greenwich, has asked a rather wider question. There will be a debate this evening on an 478 Unstarred Question by the noble Earl, Lord Longford. There have been consultations with the DHSS. I very much hope that something will be forthcoming in the future. The noble Lord is quite right to be concerned about those who are mentally disturbed.
Perhaps I may return to the main onus of the Question. I would not defend the present situation, where prisons are overcrowded, as being acceptable. Of course it is not. I have referred to the industrial action that has been taken as a part of that cause. However, we shall not get the position right until new prisons and more prisons are built. The figures that I have given your Lordships indicate that the situation is being tackled in a very forthright way. There will be a great improvement. But one cannot expect these things to happen overnight.

§ Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos
My Lords, the charge has been made that cases are being dealt with far less expeditiously since the establishment of the prosecution service. To what extent is this true? If the noble Earl is not able to answer, will he make sure that this is looked into very carefully?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I do not have any figures that I can give to the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition about that. Certainly I shall have the matter looked into to see what the position is and whether something can be done about it. I shall write to the noble Lord to tell him my conclusions

§ Lord Mishcon
My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that the figures were shocking before there was any question of industrial action being taken? Will he please look at the question, which I venture to ask again, with the recommendation that a working party be set up to report as a matter of urgency? Is he not prepared for such a working party to be created?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, I can certainly consider the suggestion. I do not know that it will necessarily provide an answer. One of the answers is to provide new and more prison places. I have explained that it is anticipated that there will be no fewer than 28 new prisons by the mid-1990s. That is a very great many. Far more money is being spent at the moment, both on prison places and on prison officers, than has been spent for a long while.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, has there been no examination of the reason for this massive increase in the prison population over the past six or seven years?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, basically it is because there has been more crime and more people have been sentenced in that way.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, why?

Earl Ferrers
My Lords, the noble Lords asks why. I cannot tell him why there is more crime. He had better ask the criminals.