DES Officials: Teaching Experience (Hansard, 21 April 1988)

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Education and Science (Baroness Hooper)
My Lords, this information is not readily available.

§ Baroness David
My Lords, I cannot bring myself to thank the Minister for that totally unsatisfactory Answer. Is she aware that I have already asked two 1617 Written Questions to try to obtain this information and that when I asked the same Question in 1981 the noble Baroness, Lady Young, was able to supply the information? Is the Minister not aware that the DES will have a great deal more to do with schools if the Education Reform Bill now before the House becomes an Act? It is extremely important that the civil servants in her department have some knowledge of teaching, in schools and are not just civil servants.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, without proper research we can only guess the figure, and I believe that my noble friend Lady Young in answering the Question of the noble Baroness in 1981 made it clear that the precise information was not available at the time. That was the reason for my previous replies to the Written Questions of the noble Baroness, and that remains the case.
Of course we are aware that a number of additional burdens will fall upon the department as a result of implementing the proposals in the Education Reform Bill. However, we believe that the valuable experience which is represented on the many advisory bodies and working groups which advise the Secretary of State would be of invaluable help in this respect.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I am rather intrigued by her inability to give this information? Does it arise because there are so many principals that they cannot he counted or because the Government have no idea what those officials were doing before they joined the department? Why does this situation arise?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, perhaps I may inform the House that we have 220 people in the category of principal and above. To produce the precise information would involve a manual search of the confidential personal files of each official, and that would cost a disproportionate amount since only authorised senior officials could make the search. In this country we have a great tradition of a career Civil Service, and on that I rest my case.

§ Lord Elton
My Lords, does my noble friend accept that many of us feel that the Department of Education is best employed in helping to administer education and not counting heads and careers among the members of its staff? Will she recall the immense reservoir of professional knowledge available from Her Majesty's Inspectorate?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, indeed. We have a wealth of experience of teaching in various institutions in Her Majesty's Inspectorate; indeed, most of the 220 officials in the grades referred to have been in the Civil Service for many years and their abilities, experience and training as civil servants are of the highest order.

§ Lord Taylor of Blackburn
My Lords, is the Minister aware that local authorities are making provision and have already made such provision in this year's Estimates for the additional costs and staff 1618 that will be required for training and for providing finance officers, bursars—call them what you will—in various schools? Surely if local authorities can do that, the department ought to be able to do it too.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, that is an interesting question. Is the noble Lord suggesting that we duplicate the work of local authorities? After all, it is the local authorities which administer, and will continue to administer, the education service at the grass roots.

Lord Morris
My Lords, would my noble friend care to comment on what might happen if senior positions in the Ministry of Defence were solely staffed by old soldiers?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, as I said earlier, my case rests on the fact that we have in this country a great tradition of career civil servants.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, surely the noble Baroness must be aware that this is an important question and the information called for is relevant. Does she not have computers in her department, and is not the necessary information on those computers? Could not the information be kept secret by the need-to-know key being used?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, there is no reason to suggest that the information is or should be kept secret; it is simply not available at the moment.

§ Lord Hailsham of Saint Marylebone
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that some of us are as dubious as to the utility of principals and above having experience as teachers as of teachers having experience of being principals and above?

§ Lord Glenamara
My Lords, can the noble Baroness confirm that even under this interfering Government the inspectorate is not part of the DES but is still independent? Is it not a fact that the answer to my noble friend's Question is none?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, Her Majesty's Inspectorate is indeed independent. However, we benefit in the department from its valuable advice.

§ Lord Dormand of Easington
My Lords, apropos HMIs, does not the Minister agree that it would be a good idea if they returned to schools for teaching from time to time? I have the highest regard for HMIs; I have had a lot to do with them. But is the Minister aware that teachers in schools dealing with day-to-day problems feel that HMIs from time to time become a little remote? Can the DES, and the Minister in particular, give some thought to that fact?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, that is a separate question. Nevertheless, I am sure that HMIs are in close contact with schools and very much aware of remarks such as that which the noble Lord has just expressed.

§ Lord Mellish
My Lords, is the Minister aware that her reply is illogical in view of the fact that under the 1619 Bill it is proposed that education in schools and so on are to be handed over to local authorities in inner London and that some of the people in those areas can neither read nor write?

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, that may indeed be a problem. However, such people will have the benefit of advice from a small unit which is being set up in the department to assist them.

§ Lord Grimond
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that the Question asked how many DES officials have had experience in schools? It does not ask whether experience is a good or bad thing, or whether they should have experience, but simply how many have experience. That is the Question which should be addressed by the Government. Having spent many years in the other place I fully recognise the right of Ministers to evade questions, but it is becoming rather too prevalent in your Lordships' House.

§ Baroness Hooper
My Lords, I stand by my original Answer. The information is not presently available.