HL Deb 09 July 1987 vol 488 cc739-41

3.27 p.m.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will reconsider their proposal in paragraph 1(c) of Schedule 1 to the Draft Housing Benefit Regulations deposited in the Library, that charges in respect of the provision of an emergency alarm system should not be eligible to be met by housing benefit "except where such a system is installed in accommodation specifically intended for and occupied by elderly, sick or disabled persons".

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, no. The draft regulations for the reformed housing benefits scheme to be introduced in April 1988 merely carry forward existing policy for meeting the costs of alarm systems through housing benefit.

Lady Saltoun of Abernethy

My Lords, do the Government realise that alternative sources of funding for those on low incomes, such as charitable donations and local authority finance, take a long time and are complicated to organise, with no guarantee of success? In view of the fact that the Government are quite rightly committed as far as possible to care in the community for the elderly and disabled—of whom there is expected to be a very large increase in the next 20 years—will they not agree that to cheesepare over the cost of these alarms is a false economy and will also defeat their own ends?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, the noble Lady is absolutely right. This should be part of community care policy and not part of housing policy. The draft regulations should not result in any loss of benefit, provided local authorities are awarding housing benefit to meet the costs of alarms systems where they are provided because of the type of accommodation rather than because of the individual's personal needs, and those individuals could lose some financial support to which they have never been entitled. In those circumstances we would expect the local councils to make up the difference.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, will the noble Lord agree that, except in the most short-sighted accountancy terms, to give people alarms so that they can stay in their own houses, which is what a great many of them do instead of having to be moved into public housing, would be a very great economy?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, yes. I have already said that—but not through the housing benefit.

Baroness Jeger

My Lords, is it not right that people who are disabled and elderly ought to be able to feel secure in their own homes? The charge on housing benefit is surely quite appropriate. Does he agree that it is elderly and disabled people who are not living in sheltered accommodation who are the most vulnerable? Usually people living in purpose-built accommodation for the elderly and disabled have some kind of supervision which will make them feel safer. Can he not look at this again? I understand that the regulations do not come before Parliament until the autumn. There is a strong feeling among voluntary bodies about this.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I believe that the noble Baroness has answered her own question. The answer is, as she knows full well, that the community care budget is the one that should pay in these circumstances. I have undertaken to use my best endeavours to see that it does.

Baroness Lane-Fox

My Lords, is my noble friend the Minister aware—by his answer to the Question I feel sure that he is—that this is an all-important aspect from both humanitarian and economic angles? It is a great way of saving money. It is a way that has been invented just recently and I am sure he will help to see that it is made greater use of in the community.

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend. I have been privileged to open such schemes in various parts of the country and I am well aware of the importance of them.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, am I right in thinking that the Government have pledged help to the inner cities? Will the Minister agree with me that there are many isolated elderly and severely disabled people in the inner cities? Brixton and Tower Hamlets care associations for the elderly and disabled are particularly worried about the problem. Is the Minister aware that a severely disabled person recently left the door open to get help and was murdered?

Lord Skelmersdale

No, my Lords; I most certainly was not aware of the last point the noble Baroness made. Speaking more generally, local social services authorities already have a duty under Section 2 of the Chronically Sick and Disabled Persons Act 1970 to provide disabled persons with various forms of assistance in the home where need has been determined. The House knows that very often in these cases the need would be determined and therefore the provision of an alarm system could be made under these provisions.

Baroness Elliot of Harwood

My Lords, as we know, there is a shortage of sheltered housing and therefore many old people have to live in ordinary homes. Do not the Government think it would be wise to save money and to help those people who live on their own by letting them have emergency alarm systems in ordinary houses as well as in sheltered homes?

Lord Skelmersdale

Yes, my Lords. I absolutely agree with my noble friend. I am advised that the department knows of no case where these facilities have been denied to anyone through inability to pay.

Lord Stallard

My Lords, will the Minister accept that there is no barrier to prevent people on low incomes being assisted under the housing benefits scheme with expenditure for these alarms? That is what the situation has been until now. Is the Minister aware that people who receive this assistance are very carefully assessed by local authorities and by others who organise these schemes before they are recommended for such assistance?

It would seem to me that this announcement of a cut—for cut is what it is—in this benefit, an attempt by the Government allegedly to close a loophole, could not come at a more inopportune time when all the voluntary organisations, the local authorities, the police and others are at this moment encouraging campaigns deliberately designed to get elderly people to participate in the alarm system and, by the use of the housing benefit scheme, to give them some financial assistance.

Noble Lords

Speech!

Lord Stallard

My Lords, to cut that off now makes a nonsense of community care. Will the noble Lord reconsider the matter, because there will be no opportunity to amend the regulations when they come before this House?

Lord Skelmersdale

My Lords, we must be careful to distinguish between the two types of alarm. As I understood the noble Lady, in her Question she was talking about a neck alarm, whereas I have made it quite clear that the fixed alarm would be eligible under the housing benefits scheme.

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