§ 11.22 a.m.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will declare their support for the Banking, Insurance and Finance Union in its resistance to the orders of the Iran Bank in London dictating forms of dress to its employees.
§ The Minister of State, Scottish Office (Lord Gray of Contin)No, my Lords. It would be inappropriate for the Government to intervene in a dispute of this kind.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, is the Minister satisfied——
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I welcome the interest of the noble Baroness on the Front Bench below me. She has obviously given the Question so much thought that, like me, she wants to get in at the deep end straightaway. I am grateful to her for her support. Following the Minister's somewhat appalling reply, in which he did not even express support for British people who resist being under the diktat of someone from Iran, may I ask him whether he will at least agree 334 that the dispatch of those instructions from Iran was both insulting and offensive? Did not those in the City who tried to carry them out show a pathetic ignorance of the freedoms of the individual of this island of ours?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I am sorry that my Answer was not acceptable to the noble Lord. I can assure him that our concern is every bit as great as his for those who work for British or for international organisations. But the Government believe that, in general, terms and conditions of employment, including those relating to dress, should be left to be agreed between employer and employee, or their representatives, without the intervention of the law.
§ Baroness SeearMy Lords, is the Minister satisfied that these regulations, which I have not had the benefit of reading, conform with the Sex Discrimination Act?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, the Government are not aware of any circumstances in which the matter which the noble Baroness has raised would be violated. Yes, the situation is that if the employees refused to comply with the bank's dress regulations and were dismissed for that refusal, under the provisions of the employment protection legislation they would have the right to complain of unfair dismissal to an industrial tribunal. The tribunal would then have to decide whether the employer has a fair reason for the dismissal and whether he had acted reasonably in all the circumstances in dismissing the person for that reason. As far as the Sex Discrimination Act is concerned, if the ladies in question felt that they were being discriminated against, they would have every right to go to an industrial tribunal and have their case dealt with in the way that I have described.
§ Lord GisboroughMy Lords, does my noble friend agree that if the women in that bank are made to wear headscarves it would be only fair that the men should wear them as well?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, that is an interesting thought. The proposition has not arisen, but the dress regulation is something which we genuinely believe is best left to the employer-employee relationship, or to those representing them.
§ Lord LeatherlandMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether, as the ladies in this bank are dealing with figures, there is any reason why they should not reveal them?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I think the general intention is rather the contrary.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, do the Government agree that it would be quite in order for them to point out to the Iran Bank that it had the privilege of establishing itself in this country— and, indeed, it is a privilege— and that it is expected to comply with the laws and customs of this country?
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, there is absolutely no question of the bank being allowed to disregard the laws of this country. The laws and procedures are there 335 for anyone who feels they are not being properly treated.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that he put his finger on the point in reply to my first supplementary question, when he said that it was up to the union and the employers to get together to talk about these things? Such procedure has been rejected out of hand by the Iranian employers. That is what I was talking about—the freedom of discussion and the freedom of individuals in this country. Will the Government at least say this: that the people who have issued this diktat should withdraw it and, as the Minister said previously, sit down and discuss the issue, and try to arrive at a sensible answer? But before that can be arrived at, both sides must do as the Minister said earlier: there must be joint discussions in an endeavour to resolve the problem.
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I would not disagree with what the noble Lord has said. The procedures are clearly laid down, and those who are involved have every right to follow them. It is not a matter for Government intervention.
§ Lord Henderson of BromptonMy Lords, while I have some sympathy for the employees of the Iran Bank in London, having myself been required to wear a prescribed form of dress for some 20 years, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, would declare his support if the servants of Parliament resisted the requirements of both the Houses that they should wear prescribed forms of dress? They include the Attendants, the Doorkeepers, Black Rod, the Yeoman Usher, the Clerks at the Table, and indeed the Lord Chancellor himself as I believe that he would call himself a servant of the House.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I would agree very eagerly with that requirement, but the noble Lord has totally and completely—
§ Lord MolloyMay I say—
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, I beg the pardon of the House.
§ Lord Gray of ContinMy Lords, I am reluctant to intervene in this exchange. I think we all listened with a great deal of appreciation to what the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, said. I would not presume to try to answer for the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, on such occasions.
§ Lord MolloyMy Lords, is the noble Lord the Minister aware that the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, has totally, completely and absolutely missed the point, which is very rare for him? The instructions he is talking about are British instructions. I want British instructions to operate at this bank, and not foreign instructions. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Henderson, will now get up and give me his full support on behalf of there being British instructions, as opposed to foreign instructions, on this island.