HL Deb 13 June 1984 vol 452 cc1115-7

2.49 p.m.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what consultations the Department of Education and Science has had with Newcastle-upon-Tyne Polytechnic about the new arrangements for meeting travel costs of students and what effect they estimate the new arrangements will have on students in the polytechnic.

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the department has not consulted individual institutions about its new proposals for the treatment of students' travel expenditure. However, during the consultative period individual institutions were free to make their views known to the department, and these were carefully considered by Ministers. No representations have been received from Newcastle Polytechnic and I am therefore unable to say what effects the polytechnic believes the new arrangements will have on its students.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that more than half, at a conservative estimate, of the full-time students will be adversely affected financially by these proposals? Is he aware that in a big polytechnic like this—and it is one of the biggest in the country—large numbers of students live in the surrounding counties, in this case in Northumberland, Tyne, Wear, and Durham? Many of them have gone from work to the polytechnic and have homes, children and family commitments. They are quite unable to move into the areas round the college and claim a two-homes allowance, and many of them are going to have to give up their courses mid-way. Does he not think that that will be a tragedy? Is he aware, for example, that a student living in Durham City has £200 a year travel costs, and that he will be £90 a year worse off because of the Government's proposals? May I add my plea to that of the—

Lord Denham

No.

Lord Glenamara

I am asking if I may add a plea. May I not add a plea to that of the chairman of the UGC that the Government think again about these proposals?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Glenamara, in reply to his first question, I do not think we have received anything from the authorities of the Newcastle Polytechnic drawing attention to these points. In fact, most students will gain under the new proposals. I am sure that the reputations of particular institutions such as Newcastle will mean they will be able to continue to recruit well motivated and able students. Although travel patterns are likely to change as a result of the new arrangements, there will be swings as well as roundabouts on the effect of this on different institutions.

Lord Kilmarnock

My Lords, if the Government have not consulted widely on this, how can they expect to make sensible proposals for travel costs? Would it not be a good idea to ask for the facts from the institutions concerned?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, the Government have consulted widely over this. As I said, they have not consulted with individual institutions but the individual institutions were allowed to express any opinions if they so wished. They have consulted with a number of bodies, including the National Union of Students and the Committee of Vice-Chancellors and Principals, and other national bodies.

Baroness Lockwood

My Lords, would the Minister not agree that the survey of the National Union of Students has shown that the majority of students are going to be worse off under this new agreement, and the so-called rough justice which the department was claiming for the change is not going to operate? Would he not also confirm that within recent weeks the Committee of Directors of Polytechnics has expressed very grave concern over the effect of the change on students at polytechnics because of the kind of problem which my noble friend has outlined in relation to Newcastle?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, my understanding is different from that of the noble Baroness, Lady Lockwood, in so far as I understand that the majority of students will in fact be better off. We do not collect information of the kind that the National Union of Students have done, but it would in any case be of limited value in relation to what is now proposed as we would expect student travel patterns to change as they arrange their affairs so as to get maximum advantage from the new arrangements. Students have never been under any pressure before because they have been able to claim the money. There are various cheap ways of travelling: cheap concessionary rail fares and bus fares, and perhaps the hire of private transport and various things which they can look at to suit the new arrangements.

Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos

My Lords, it appears from the evidence contained in the questions put to the noble Earl the Minister (who has answered very fairly) that students may indeed suffer as a result of the change. Was it not clear from his replies that there was no overall consultation of the kind which normally takes place between his department and the polytechnics? In the light of the questions, would he not ask his right honourable friend to look at this matter again to ensure that these students, who are an important part of the future of this country, are not put at a disadvantage at this important time?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, as I said before, we did not consult with every single institution in the country; we did consult with those bodies which represent the authorities and we consulted with those bodies which represent the students before we took this action. No, my Lords, I am afraid I am not prepared to ask my right honourable friend to look at this again.

Lord Glenamara

My Lords, if the noble Earl is not prepared to do anything about it, may I ask him what parliamentary action is necessary for this scheme to be implemented?

The Earl of Swinton

My Lords, I do not think there is any.