HL Deb 05 June 1984 vol 452 cc486-90

2.41 p.m.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what estimates have been made of the cost to operators at Gatwick Airport incurred as a result of delays caused by the temporary non-availability of the single runway; whether they are satisfied that these costs will not be increased by the expected development of future traffic, and whether they will give an assurance that the facilities of the proposed emergency runway will be available to make the fullest contribution towards the reduction of delays and costs.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, information on the costs which arise from the temporary non-availability of the single runway at Gatwick Airport is not available. However, the majority of closures are for planned maintenance, and operators are given adequate notice in these cases to make alternative arrangements so as to minimise or avoid any extra costs. Under the terms of the planning consent for the emergency, runway, on which work has now commenced, it can be used only when the single runway is non-operational. The British Airports Authority intends to make maximum use of it at such times.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask him whether it would not be advisable to obtain a closer estimate of the cost involved? Is it not a fact that the enormous investment at Gatwick, by both the airports authority and the operators, will be absolutely stultified if that one runway is not available for periods of an hour or half an hour? In those circumstances, is it not preferable—indeed, essential—to make certain that that taxiway is developed into an alternative runway which can be more fully available?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I said in the original Answer, the planning consent, to which I referred, did not provide for the taxiway to be developed for use as a full runway as the noble Lord is asking. Indeed, I think that there would be considerable physical difficulties in doing that because, as the noble Lord will recall, the taxiway is quite close to the existing main runway, and in any event there are certain topographical difficulties in the area which I think would prevent a full runway being constructed for the purpose that the noble Lord has in mind.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, may I make it clear to the noble Lord that I am not asking for the taxiway to be a main alternative runway? I am asking for it to be more readily available, not simply in crude emergencies, but in order to supplement the main runway on occasions. May I ask the noble Lord whether he will look into the question of costs even more closely, because, as traffic develops, this one runway just will not be able to accommodate the 25 million passengers expected each year?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, the question of whether or not a single runway can accommodate 25 million passengers is one about which some of your Lordships have asked me on a number of occasions. The Government remain of the view that the single runway will be able to handle 25 million passengers a year by the time we reach the mid-1990s, because we expect that by then the average load of the aircraft using the runway will have significantly increased. So we remain of the view that our estimates in that particular area are appropriate. We also remain of the view that a second runway would cause very considerable difficulties of a kind that I have previously described. That is why we decided that we should not proceed on that basis.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, reverting to what the noble Lord, Lord Beswick, said about the taxiway being more readily available, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that an airline told me recently that in one year it had cost them half a million pounds for delayed landings when the main runway was in use? Secondly, may I ask him whether he recalls that on 23rd May he told the House that the taxiway—and mention is made of facilities in the Question—could not be used in adverse weather conditions, and neither could it take fully laden public transport? Therefore, does he understand that we are not impressed with the facilities that he talks about?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I accept that the emergency runway which is now being constructed will not be available for use in the most adverse conditions. If the noble Baroness would like me to go into detail on that point perhaps it would be appropriate for me to write to her on it. However, the runway will be equipped with a range of lights so that it will be possible to use it at night, provided that the weather is not particularly adverse.

Lord Underhill

My Lords, the Minister said that under the terms of the planning consent the emergency runway can be used whenever the main runway is not operational. Are there any restrictions at all in that regard, are there any special procedures that must be gone through, or will it be automatic procedure?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I understand that the emergency runway will come into use automatically if for any reason the main runway is not available.

Lord Beswick

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I greatly respect his aviation background? In the light of that background may I ask him to look again at the question of the increased size of aircraft which he says will be operating in the mid-1990s? Will he take into account the present sales of the 146, the 737/300, and the A.320, which will mean that the average size of aircraft will be nothing like the size that has been built into the calculation to which he referred?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, it is a question of not only the size of the aeroplane being used, but also the load factor and how many seats of a particular aeroplane are occupied. I should not wish to bore the House or the noble Lord with the detailed arithmetic involved, but perhaps I may write to the noble Lord with the particulars of the arithmetic.

Lord Bruce of Donington

My Lords, in regard to the first part of my noble friend's Question, is the noble Lord aware that there are available conventional accounting techniques which enable the figure asked for by my noble friend to be determined with a fair degree of approximation? Will the noble Lord have another look into this matter, with a view to providing the House with approximate information?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as the noble Lord says, there are a number of accounting techniques which can be applied to these considerations, but they have to take into account, and make, a number of assumptions which may or may not be valid in five or 10 years' time. Therefore, I am not sure whether a broad brush calculation made now—no doubt it could be made—would be helpful to either the noble Lord or the House.

Baroness Seear

My Lords, would the noble Lord accept that the House would not be bored by the detail, since it is the detail which determines the substance of the answer?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I hear what the noble Baroness says, but I must say that when I made those remarks I heard some appreciative groans from behind me.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, frequently information is proffered by Government Ministers in the form of a letter written to the noble Lord who has put the particular question. Since there may be a wider circle of noble Lords who are interested in the answer to the question may I ask the Minister whether he would consider it useful to have in this House a procedure whereby the information offered by a Minister could be circulated in the Official Report, rather than contained in a private document which is accessible to only one Member? Will the noble Lord undertake to see that that suggestion is considered through the usual channels?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as the noble Lord suggests that is a matter for the usual channels. I normally undertake to write a letter in that way when I imagine that the information is of interest only to a particular noble Lord or noble Baroness. But if, for example, the noble Lord would like me to give the information in answer to a Question for Written Answer, I should be very happy to do so.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, will the noble Lord say whether, provided he obtains the permission of the two persons to whom he is to address his correspondence, there is any objection to a copy of each letter being placed in the Library?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not sure whether that is the normal procedure, but if that is the wish of the House and of those who are to receive the letter, I should be very happy to do it.

Baroness Burton of Coventry

My Lords, as the Minister is being good enough to write to me further about the adverse weather conditions, would he be able to have inquiries made as to the costs and the delays which are occurring to airlines because there is only this one, single runway at Gatwick, or does he think that might be too dangerous a course to pursue?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, as I said to the noble Lord, Lord Bruce, it may be possible to produce some figures of that kind, but I am not sure whether they would be very reliable ones. The noble Baroness may be reassured to know that last year, apart from planned closures, the runway at Gatwick was not available for only 53 minutes.