§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. May I ask the Minister to be good enough to read out the figures at dictation speed?
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what are the figures for expenditure on magistrates' courts for each year between 1979 and estimated 1985–86 at constant prices, taking 1979 at £72 million.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)My Lords, the Government plans public expenditure in cash rather than on the basis of constant prices. The figures I shall give have, however, been adjusted by the deflator for gross domestic product at market prices taking 1979–80 as the base year. Information about plans for 1985–86 will be given in the forthcoming Public Expenditure White Paper. The outturn for 1979–80 was £72.5 million, for 1980–81 it was £79.1 million and for 1981–82 it was £82.6 million. For 1982–83 the provisional outturn is £85 million, for 1983–84 the forecast outturn is £87.9 million and the planned figure for 1984–85 is £88.9 million. The figures show that, even after allowance is made, so far as is possible, for the effect of inflation, current expenditure has increased from year to year.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, I am much obliged to the Minister for the trouble he has taken in providing me with these figures. May I ask him whether he recollects that, in reply to a Question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol, towards the end of November of last year, the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor gave figures indicating a very substantial increase indeed—so substantial an increase that no less a person than the Leader of Her Majesty's Opposition was disposed to call them "very impressive figures"? These figures were given in current cost terms and led the House to believe that there had been a very substantial increase in this expenditure over a period of six years, and in particular over the year being inquired into by the questioner.
§ Lord DiamondThe Question, in case the Chief Whip has forgotten it, is: does the noble Lord recollect that this happened? Does the noble Lord further recollect that the figures given for the relevant years which were under inquiry by the noble Baroness showed an increase of some £6 million? On the figures now given by the noble Lord, the accurate figure is £1 million—£1 million as against £11 million.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the noble Lord is very kind to give way. He is raising a number of points at some length. It is easier to deal with them one by one rather than to have a collection of points put to me at length. I cannot say that I recollect the occasion to which the noble Lord refers, because it was the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor who answered the Question. He was good enough to do so because I could not be here. I have, however, read the account in the record and can vouch for everything that my noble and learned friend said. I have the figures before me. They were rounded down, which makes them less ambitious than the noble Lord is seeming to infer. They relate exactly to the figures I have given, which were adjusted as the noble Lord asked me to adjust them.
§ Lord DiamondMy Lords, the question is: is it not in the best interests of this House that Ministers should be in a position to give significant comparisons rather than comparisons which lay it open for the Members of this House to be misled?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, it is in the best tradition of this House, which my noble and learned friend impeccably followed, to answer Questions according to the terms in which they are asked.
§ Lord Prys-DaviesMy Lords, I recall the Question that was addressed to the noble Lord by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicol.
§ Lord Prys-DaviesMay I ask the noble Lord whether there is evidence of undue delay in the hearing of cases before magistrates' courts? If so, it would be a cause for concern, because justice delayed is justice denied.
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I am not quite sure how I can relate that question to the Question on the Order Paper.
Lord HawkeMy Lords, has the Minister any figures relating to the productivity of these courts? In other words, what is the quantity of fines levied over these periods?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I genuinely regret that I do not have the figures at my fingertips, but I shall write to my noble friend.
§ Baroness FaithfullMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend the Minister whether the figures are broken down between juvenile and adult courts and, if so, what is the cost of the juvenile courts?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I am afraid that if I were to have the full range of information in such detail in my hands it would scarcely be portable, but, again, I shall write to my noble friend.
Lord Paget of NorthamptonMy Lords, does the noble Lord feel that our lay magisterial courts justify this expenditure? Are they not too often run by a clerk whose ego seems to outstrip his intelligence?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, I believe that magistrates who give voluntarily of their time are an invaluable feature of the British judicial system.
§ Baroness NicolMy Lords, since my name has been raised in connection with this matter, I should like to put a question to the noble Lord the Minister. The Question which appears on the Order Paper is not entirely along the lines of that which I asked. Will the Minister therefore reiterate that he is satisfied that expenditure on magistrates' courts at the moment is achieving the purpose of the Government in maintaining the quality of law and order to which we have become accustomed?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, the answer—if I may be brief—is, yes.
§ Lord Cledwyn of PenrhosMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that lay magistrates are among the most effective and well-regarded of the institutions of this country; that they play a remarkable role in the defence of our liberties under the law; and that they should be given the necessary resources to do their work even more effectively in the future?
§ Lord EltonMy Lords, with the whole of the first part of the noble Lord's question, I entirely agree. As to the resources devoted to the discharge of their functions, I believe they are adequate and, as both my noble and learned friend and I have sought to say, they are also increasing.