HL Deb 17 November 1982 vol 436 cc524-6

2.47 p.m.

Lord Rugby

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the "unintended profits" of opticians of £6 million caused through the falsifying of statements rendered to the DHSS; and also on the back payment of £70–90 million with particular reference to which part of the trade qualifies for such payment.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health and Social Security (Lord Trefgarne)

My Lords, opticians have always complied with the prescribed system and claimed the reimbursement rates laid down in a statutory statement, as they are required to do, and it is wholly wrong to assert that the "unintended profits" have arisen through opticians falsifying statements to the DHSS. After discussion with representatives of opticians, the Department of Health has decided that £6 million should be withheld from the arrears of NHS fees due to opticians pending the results of a detailed inquiry into the prices actually paid by opticians for NHS lenses and frames. Negotiations on NHS fees and the appropriate amount of arrears due are now in their final stages. When fee arrears have been finally settled, they will be paid to all ophthalmic and dispensing opticians who provided NHS services during the periods to which the arrrears relate.

Lord Rugby

My Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord: has there not been a very considerable degree of purchasing of cheaper lenses and appliances from Far East countries and then the sending in of accounts to the Department of Health and Social Security as though those items had been purchased from prescription houses in this country, as a result of which a large number of highly skilled workmen have been laid off, machinery has been unused and, generally speaking, the prescription houses which rely on this particular work from the Department of Health and Social Security have been done out of their legitimate profit?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, opticians are entitled to purchase their lenses or their frames from wherever they please, provided, of course, that the items they acquire meet the required standards, and they are then entitled to claim reimbursement at standard rates. Of course, all this is in the context of arrears of some £60 million or £70 million, or even more, due to opticians, which have arisen over the last four years or so.

Lord Campbell of Alloway

My Lords, would my noble friend the Minister agree that perhaps there is a case to be made for the department not only buying British but seeing that it is supplying British?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I think the important thing is to be sure that we get the best value for money out of the sums of money that we make available for these purposes, and to make our purchasing arrangements accordingly.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, is the Minister saying that opticians have the right to buy their frames and lenses from any part of the world and, if they get them at a very cheap rate, to charge something really exorbitant because a much higher figure is in the agreement between the opticians and the Government?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, that was the arrangement in the past in view of the fact that reimbursement was at a standard rate. That is one of the things that we are looking at now.

Lord Orr-Ewing

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in many parts of this House and in another place as well there is great distress at the exceptionally high price which has to be paid in this country for spectacles? We are under the impression and we were told that the Office of Fair Trading was looking into all these arrangements. One year has elapsed since that body was given this remit. Can my noble friend say when we are going to get this report? We want to get on with it and try to clean up the arrangements for cheap, effective and good quality spectacles in this country as are available elsewhere at a much lower price.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, it is certainly the case that there was some anxiety about the prices charged for private spectacles. I am happy to say that there has been some indication of these prices having gone down in recent months following our new arrangements with regard to National Health Service spectacles, because opticians used to maintain that they had to subsidise the production of health service appliances from the profits that they made from the supply of private spectacles. We are seeing to it that that arrangement is put right. As for the investigation by the Director-General of Fair Trading, I cannot hide from my noble friend the Government's considerable disappointment that it has not been possible for the Director-General to produce his report so far. I had hoped to be able to give your Lordships today a date by when he would have been able to do it; but that is still not possible. We hope that it will be by the end of this year.

Lord Wallace of Coslany

My Lords, is not the Minister aware that the charge of falsifying statements to the DHSS is a very serious charge indeed? Furthermore, is it true? If it is not true, then I would suggest to the House that the noble Lord, Lord Rugby, should withdraw that particular charge.

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I have endeavoured to explain that the noble Lord, Lord Rugby, is mistaken in the assertion contained in his Question; but anything after that is for the noble Lord himself.

Lord Rugby

My Lords, I got these assertions from the newspapers. It was very widely reported and nobody at that time secured a libel action against the newspapers. If it is true that opticians are in fact falsifying the accounts, may we be assured that such people will be brought to court and that the due processes of the law will be brought about?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I must emphasise that the Government have no evidence of any falsification of accounts such as the noble Lord sugests; but he must use his sources from where he finds them.

Lord John-Mackie

My Lords, the Government have the power to claw back in recompense their £6 million. Who is going to recompense the people who have paid too much for their spectacles?

Lord Trefgarne

My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord is referring to private customers or health service customers. Health service customers get their spectacles in accordance with the provisions of the health service scheme under which they pay a fixed charge.