Arms Sales to Non-EEC Countries (Hansard, 18 May 1982)

The Earl of Dudley
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Belstead)
My Lords, no formal agreements exist between member states to limit or control the sale of arms to non-European Community countries. Nevertheless, the noble Earl will be aware that the Community have now imposed a ban on the export of all arms to Argentina.

The Earl of Dudley
My Lords, while thanking my noble friend for giving a reply which I must confess I did to some extent expect, may I further ask him, taking into account that unanimity in the EEC may no longer be axiomatic or automatic, whether he does not think it likely that the possession of a weapon such as Exocet may have encouraged General Galtieri in his rash adventure? Would it not be, in the Govern- 598 ment's opinion, highly desirable to try to achieve within the framework of the EEC some form of limitation or control on the sale of sophisticated weaponry to countries which may well not have the responsibility to use them properly?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, we support the right of sovereign states to act in self-defence and to acquire arms to protect their independence. But, of course, I agree with my noble friend that it is most important to look at each case on its merits and indeed to keep the policy under continuous review. So far as the particular case which my noble friend cites is concerned, of course France has now banned the sale of all defence equipment to the Argentine.

§ Lord Avebury
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is aware that on 6th May 1978, when I went to see Mr. Ted Rowlands at the Foreign Office to ask him not to allow the sale of frigates to Argentina, he declined this proposal on the basis that it would be at least five years before the ships could be delivered, and that, in the end, although these frigates were to be supplied by West Germany, British sub-contractors had played a substantial part in the equipment that was to go in these ships? Is he further aware that his noble predecessor said, when asked about the sale of arms to Argentina, first of all that we would not sell weapons to a country guilty of torture, but subsequently had to retract that and had to say that we would not sell arms to such a régime which could be used against the civilian population? Does he not think that the experience with Argentina shows what folly it is to sell weapons to countries which are ruled by juntas, such as Argentina, and that we should reconsider the matter, not only in relation to Argentina but to other military dictatorships of a similar nature in Latin America?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the right to self-defence and to need arms in order to defend a country is enshrined in Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. It is not, therefore, surprising that the countries of the European Community, including the United Kingdom, sell arms to different countries. What is important, and where I do agree with the noble Lord, is that this has to be kept under very close review.

§ Lord Mayhew
My Lords, would not the noble Lord agree that the Falklands crisis has reminded everyone that, for whatever reason, in the past arms sales have been generally far too undiscriminating and that there must be some review of the situation? Why should the Community not, for example, at least keep a register of arms deals being negotiated so that in appropriate cases member states could make representations about them?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Mayhew, said that the matter should be reviewed. I assure him that arms sales policy towards individual countries is kept under continuous review.

§ Lord Molloy
My Lords, could the noble Lord say whether there has been any consideration by the EEC regarding the illicit sale of arms to mercenary groups 599 like those marauding and slaying in Southern Africa, and whether there is anything being done to try to reduce that and ultimately eliminate it?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I am not aware of any review of the kind which the noble Lord, Lord Molloy, asks me about.

§ Lord Brockway
My Lords, in view of the pressure which has been exerted by many Members of this House, would the Government seriously review the arms traffic policy? Is this not illustrated by the fact that last weekend it was revealed that Vickers at Barrow-in-Furness had built two destroyers for the Argentine Government, sister ships of HMS "Sheffield", actually fitted with the Exocet missiles? Will the Government reconsider the decision to hold an exhibition with 140 armament companies in this country showing their products to Governments of the world without regard to whether or not they are denying human rights?

§ Lord Belstead
No, my Lords.

§ Lord Jenkins of Putney
My Lords, will the noble Lord not reconsider the last answer, and ask his right honourable and noble friends to do the same? Is it not the case that under all Governments—not only his Government but previous Governments—this sale of arms internationally has grown up to an alarming degree, to the extent that as we are talking, during every minute of our discussion, 34 children have died of malnutrition and for each minute £750,000 has been spent on arms? Is this not an unreasonable situation, and should we not try to do something about it?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, the original Question from my noble friend Lord Dudley was about EEC policy, and there are widely differing interests within the Community which make it unlikely that a common policy on arms exports will evolve in the foreseeable future. In saying that, I am not trying to be unhelpful to noble Lords who asked the last two questions. I agree and the Government agree that this is a very serious matter, which needs to be kept always under very close review.

The Earl of Dudley
My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord if he is aware that there are articles in the Treaty of Rome, such as perhaps 223 and 224, whereby common policy on trade in arms and military equipment could be made applicable under the treaty?

§ Lord Belstead
My Lords, I do not for one moment dissent from my noble friend in believing that a common policy can be reached by the Community on any matter on which the Community may see fit to reach a common policy. It is a matter of the greatest acceptability to the Government, and indeed to both Houses of Parliament, that there is unanimity at the moment in the Community on the question of the undesirability of selling arms to Argentina. But I cannot go further than that at the present time.