HL Deb 24 March 1982 vol 428 cc964-6

3.3 p.m.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend Lord Orr-Ewing, and at his request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in his name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the proposed pay increases for the Civil Service affect their annual pay increments; and what have been the percentages of these increments in recent years.

Baroness Young

My Lords, the payment of increments, where these are due, is not affected by the current pay offer to the non-industrial Civil Service. In 1981–82 just under half of all staff received increments. The average value of these increments to those who received them was about 4½ per cent. of salary, though the net additional cost of the incremental pay system to the wage bill was only ½per cent. As in a wide range of other employments, the pay for the grade in the Civil Service is the scale taken as a whole, together with rules for progression through it.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Can she confirm that it means that so far as about half the service is concerned the increase in remuneration of a particular official in any year is the amount of increase agreed with the Government plus increment?

Baroness Young

No, my Lords. Many of those who are getting a pay award will not in fact be receiving an increment at all. Some of those who will receive an increment will get a nil pay award this year. The two things ought not to be confused. The increments are part of the accepted range of pay scales. The pay award is something quite separate.

Lord Boyd-Carpenter

My Lords, can my noble friend clarify that answer? In respect of the half of the service who would receive increments in a normal year, has not one to add the increment to the pay award?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am very glad to try to clarify the point, on which I think there has been some confusion. The incremental pay scale represents the rate of pay for the employee concerned. If we followed the line of reasoning in the Question and included it as part of the pay award, we would have to add the value of increments made to pay offers for a whole range of people, including nurses, local government employees, the services and so on.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that in a letter to me this morning the Prime Minister said that the Top Salaries Review Body is at the moment in the process of considering the pay of senior civil servants? Can she say whether its report will be published, and whether the independent advice being given by that body on the question of pay increases to senior civil servants means that decisions on their remuneration will be taken outside the framework of the Government's pay policy?

Baroness Young

My Lords, I am really not in a position to comment on the Top Salaries Review Body, which is quite wide of the Question on the Order Paper.

Lord Mottistone

My Lords, if my noble friend would not find it too difficult to follow up the point made by my noble friend Lord Boyd-Carpenter, is it not a fact that individual civil servants get more—in the shape of this increment of, I think my noble friend said, 4 per cent.—than the amount awarded as an increase, and therefore one must always assume that there is another percentage to be added on to whatever is publicised in the newspapers?

Baroness Young

No, my Lords; my noble friend Lord Mottistone is not correct in that. It is very important for the House and the public to understand that incremental increases are a separate issue. The incremental pay scale represents the rate of pay for an employee. The pay award is something quite separate.

Lord Leatherland

My Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she would not agree that there is some misunderstanding and confusion in people's minds about the difference between a pay award and an increment? Perhaps she can tell us whether, in the event of the Government deciding to increase the allowances paid to Members of your Lordships' House, that would be a pay award or an increment?

Baroness Young

My Lords, the short answer to the noble Lord, Lord Leatherland, is that it is neither. I think he would find that it was concerned with the claiming of expenses in your Lordships' House, and was not an increment or a pay award.