§ 2.44 p.m.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty's Government what action they are taking in the light of the failure of the Greater London Council to deal with the increasing congestion and delay of traffic in Central London.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, as my noble friend is aware, the primary responsibility for traffic in London is vested in the Greater London Council. The Government for their part have placed a high priority on the completion of the M.25, which will reduce through traffic in London. The fixed penalty for illegal parking has recently been increased, the recruitment of traffic wardens improved, and powers are being sought in the Transport Bill—which is at present before your Lordships' House—which include making more difficult the avoidance of penalties as well as allowing the use of wheel clamps on an experimental basis in selected areas. All of those measures are designed to reduce congestion.
§ Lord Boyd-CarpenterMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that comprehensive reply, may I ask whether he is aware that most of it appeared to relate to action by Her Majesty's Government and remarkably little to the inaction of the Greater London Council? Will he in particular discuss with the GLC, with whom, as he says, the power lies, the question of following the example of, for instance, Paris and Rome and forbidding very large vehicles to traverse the centre of the city?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the Government are not responsible for what the GLC do and we have, as my noble friend probably knows, GLC proposals to ban lorries in London. These are at present under 796 consideration. A number of interesting and radical solutions have been proposed for achieving a relaxation of the congestion, and I am sure the GLC will bear in mind what my noble friend said.
§ Lord AveburyMy Lords, would the Minister consider that a measure that could play a significant part in reducing congestion would be the encouragement of cycling, so that people, instead of bringing their cars into Central London, could get about by a pollution-free method of transport instead? Will the Government take steps to encourage local authorities —not just the GLC—to provide cycle paths on major routes so that this method of transport is considerably encouraged?
§ The Earl of AvonThere has indeed been an increase in bicycling, my Lords, and we are well aware of that. Some studies have been done on it and a number of authorities arc following the ideas which the noble Lord has suggested.
§ Lord UnderhillMy Lords, does the Minister recall that the whole question of congestion was dealt with very effectively on a non-party discussion basis in this House in a debate on the problems of congestion in Greater London? Would he acknowledge that the transportation department of the GLC has given considerable attention to the problem? In addition to the points the Minister mentioned, is it not a fact that an important question, in addition to enforcement, is the need to ensure that the clearways are left open and there is adequate and efficient public transport?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I join with the noble Lord, Lord Underhill, in thanking my noble friend Lord Balfour of Inchrye for instituting a debate we had some months ago. I also endorse everything Lord Underhill said about the progress that is being made, including the fact that the GLC has the Wood Committee at present sitting on this very subject.
§ Lord Howie of TroonMy Lords, the Minister having referred to the capability of the M.25 to deal with the problem of through traffic in London, may I ask whether he is aware that through traffic is only a tiny proportion of London's traffic, much less than 10 per cent.? The problem is not that of through traffic but of inner London traffic. Does he agree that a more sensible proposition would be to revive the long-abandoned idea of the motorway box, which would be much more sensible than the M.25?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am sure those are the sort of conditions and situations which are being discussed at the moment by the committee set up by the GLC, and I am sure they will take note of what the noble Lord has said.
§ Lord SoamesMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend to hazard a guess as to the date of completion of those sections of the M.25 which will relieve the congestion of traffic in London? In view of the supplementary asked by the noble Lord, Lord Howie, may I remind my noble friend that the Peripherique in Paris, which is the equivalent of the M.25, has made 797 an enormous difference to the flow of traffic in the centre of Paris? However, that is a four-way motorway, and I hope the M.25 will be too, or it will be out of date before it starts.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the date of completion of the M.25 for which we are hoping is 1986. I have —I am sure like other noble Lords—sat in a traffic jam on the Peripherique.
§ Lord SoamesNot for long.
§ Lord Howie of TroonMay I ask the Minister to note, my Lords, that the Peripherique, interesting though it is, is nothing like the M.25, which is an orbital road? The Peripherique is more like the motorway box, which unfortunately was abandoned a few years ago.
§ The Earl of AvonI take note of what the noble Lord has said, my Lords.
§ Lord Jenkins of PutneyMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, if my noble friend Lord Howie wanted to revive the motorway box, he would be welcome to do so in Troon but not in London?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, the noble Lord obviously speaks from Putney, where such boxes would be very unacceptable.
Earl Alexander of TunisMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the River Thames is one of the least used waterways of any major city in the world? Also, will he note the fact that perhaps greater use could he made of heavy lorries?
Earl Alexander of TunisMy Lords, may I add that what I was referring to was heavy lorries making use of barges on the River Thames?
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, I am grateful for my noble friend's intervention. He may care to know that at present about only 6 per cent. of London's freight is carried on the river.
§ Lord Young of DartingtonMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Boyd-Carpenter, mentioned the need to ban heavy vehicles from entering Central London. Turning to cars, rather than lorries, may I ask the noble Earl the Minister whether he personally has considered, or perhaps the Government have considered, the case—which seems to me a strong one—for supplementary licences for car owners entering Central London in the day time? That should both reduce congestion and raise more revenue for the improvement of public transport.
§ The Earl of AvonMy Lords, my understanding is that the GLC has indeed considered such things, but I have a feeling that the administrative costs would be prohibitive.