HL Deb 19 April 1982 vol 429 cc381-4

2.50 p.m.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what they propose to do to meet the conclusions made in the report of Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons that conditions in prison are so brutalising and degrading that they cannot be met by the Government's proposals to build more prisons and improve present buildings.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Elton)

The serious problems facing the prison service to which Her Majesty's Chief Inspector has drawn attention are the result of a mismatch between the demands made on the service and the resources available to it. It is the aim of Government policy to correct that mismatch. The steps which the Government are taking to do so are set out in the foreword to the report to which the noble Lord refers in his Question.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, while recognising that an exchange is more appropriate in the forthcoming debate, may I ask the noble Lord whether, in view of the appalling conditions described in this report, they cannot do something more immediate than building new prisons three years hence? For example, can they carry out the recommendations of this report for extended educational facilities in order to relieve the overcrowding in the cells?

Lord Elton

My Lords, as the report has been out barely three weeks, the noble Lord will not expect me to deal in detail with the recommendations within the report. However, I think it is right to say that the Government have on many occasions acknowledged publicly that the prison population is well in excess of available accommodation and we are continuing to encourage the courts to make the fullest possible use of the range of non-custodial alternatives to imprisonment. We are also extending the range of options open to the courts both by our proposals in the Criminal Justice Bill and by the introduction of the partial suspension of sentences.

Baroness Wootton of Abinger

My Lords, does the noble Lord remember that one of the last acts of the Advisory Council on the Penal System was to make a number of recommendations that would materially have shortened prison sentences, and that one of the first acts of this Government was to abolish that council?

Lord Elton

My Lords, nevertheless another of the Government's acts has been to take steps to reduce the length of sentences.

Lord Elwyn-Jones

My Lords, would the Minister say what success has followed the publicity in regard to the lowering of sentences and to treating sentences of imprisonment as a last resort? Is the prison population diminishing and, if so, to what extent?

Lord Elton

My Lords, it is somewhat early to give a specific reply to the noble and learned Lord. There is some evidence that courts are following the lead given by the Lord Chief Justice towards shorter sentences, and we shall continue to encourage that trend.

Lord Molloy

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this problem has been growing under successive Governments and that there is a very urgent need for some interim measures? When these are undertaken, in what I hope is the not-too-distant future, will the Prison Officers' Association be taken into full confidence by the Government, since they are the people who share the problem equally with the inmates of the prisons? Could he give the House an assurance that the Prison Officers' Association, who are also facing this despairing situation, will be taken into full confidence by the Government in any action that is contemplated?

Lord Elton

My Lords, as to the first part of the noble Lord's question, I am obliged to him, and indeed my right honourable friend, in the foreword to which I have referred, has pointed out that the major problems to which Her Majesty's Chief Inspector refers have been decades in the making and cannot of course be solved overnight. The noble Lord asked about interim measures. I should point out to your Lordships that the Government are spending £34 million on major capital projects at existing establishments, and £22 million on repairs and maintenance in the current financial year. During the 1980s we expect to spend over £350 million on major capital projects and over £150 million on repairs and maintenance. That is, of course, in addition to the cost of the new prisons we are building. I am sure your Lordships will agree that that represents a substantial investment in the future of the prison service. I also readily acknowledge the valuable part played by the Prison Officers' Association in this progress.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, is there not a substantial difference between the recommendations of the Advisory Council on the Penal System for the reduction across the board in the maximum length of sentences and the policy of the present Government, which is to exhort the courts of their own volition to reduce the length of sentences? This latter approach having now proved to be a failure, should the Government not now go back to read the report of the advisory council?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the Government are of course aware of the difference in policies and have taken what they believe to be the right course. They do not believe they should dictate matters of this kind to the courts when the courts are in a better position to make judgments in individual cases.

Lord Hunt

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in the report referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, the Chief Inspector of Prisons himself has said quite unequivocally that the only solution to the present deplorable position in our prisons is a reduction in the prison population, not by inference the building of more prisons?

Lord Elton

My Lords, as I said earlier, I do not think that I ought to reply to specific recommendations made in a report which was published only, I think, 20 days ago. I think my right honourable friend should be given credit, and perhaps your Lordships would agree, not only for having set up this inspectorate but also for ensuring that its reports are published—since he was thereby, as it were, cutting a rod for his own back and had some idea as to who would be using it to beat him.

Baroness Trumpington

My Lords, with regard to the use of the word "degrading" in the Question, may I ask whether the improvements to prison buildings will include better toilet facilities, and that the building of the new prisons will result in the business of "slopping out" becoming a thing of the past in the as-near-as-possible future?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I recognise the importance of my noble friend's question and I shall give her the answer in writing.

Lord Wells-Pestell

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether he is aware that shorter sentences in themselves may empty the prisons or reduce the prison population but will not necessarily stop people going back, as the statistics clearly show? Will he not realise, if the department has not already done so, that the important thing when a person comes out of prison, is that he should get the social support which he needs? May I ask what provision is being made for some form of social care after prisoners have finished their prison sentences? At the present moment, as the noble Lord will know, a number of people have qualified as probation officers, but have yet to be employed.

Lord Elton

My Lords, the Government are well aware of the importance of the social aspects of offending and I can assure him that these are taken on board. I do not want to pursue that further; it is a little wide of the Question. But since we are dealing with the number of people in prisons, I would think it right to remind your Lordships that the Government are also anxious that police forces should be kept up to the highest strength and that the rate of detection should be as high as possible. Your Lordships will also realise that resources used in this direction call for a greater need for resources in the direction in which the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, wants them to be spent.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, arising from the replies the Minister has given, may I ask him this: does not the report say that there should be a reduction of 7,000 in the prison population? If a proposal that T made for a wider amnesty is rejected, could there not be an amnesty for selective prisoners reaching the 7,000, many of whom ought not to be in prison at all, as appropriate treatment?

Lord Elton

My Lords, as to which prisoners should not be in prison, that is a matter which would have to be investigated case by case. As to the specific figure put in the report, I must again say that I do not wish to anticipate anything my right honourable friend may say when he has had proper time, which he has not yet had, to consider the contents of the report.

Baroness Wootton of Abinger

My Lords, if the Minister is not able to comment on the report which was published only a few weeks ago, and is equally unable to make use of the report which was published three years ago, would he say what period of delay is natural before any action is taken?

Lord Elton

My Lords, the appropriate period of delay is that necessary to digest information and to apply it correctly. I was asked in the Question on the Order Paper about a report which was published 20 days ago. I was not asked about the previous report. If the noble Baroness wishes to put down a Question, I shall be happy to answer it.

Earl Alexander of Tunis

My Lords, if the Government are going to recommend shorter prison sentences, will they make sure that the victims of crimes are better compensated?

Lord Elton

My Lords, I think that that is a different question.