HL Deb 05 April 1982 vol 429 cc25-33

4.2 p.m.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (The Earl of Gowrie)

My Lords, it might be for the convenience of the House if, with the leave of the House, I now repeat a Statement being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. The Statement is as follows:

"Mr. Speaker, I will, with permission, make a Statement on policital developments in Northern Ireland.

"The Government have today published a White Paper setting out proposals for the election of an assembly which would provide a framework within which a devolved government might again be set up in Northern Ireland. These proposals are designed to meet two objectives. First, to provide at once a means for greater democratic participation by the people of Northern Ireland in their own affairs. Secondly, to give them the opportunity to evolve for themselves a form of government acceptable to them.

"The Government propose that there should be an election later this year to a new Northern Ireland assembly. While consideration of the arrangements for a devolved administration will be its most crucial task, the assembly will from its first day have important scrutinising, deliberative and consultative functions. It will be able to report on a wide range of topics and its reports will be laid before Parliament.

"The assembly will establish committees corresponding to each of the Northern Ireland departments to monitor and report on their policies and activities."

"The assembly will from the outset be empowered to recommend arrangements under which the whole or part of the full range of legislative and executive responsibilities which were devolved in 1973, could be exercised by the assembly and by a devolved administration answerable to it. If the assembly send the Secretary of State proposals which have the support of 70 per cent. of the total membership of the assembly he will be required under statute to lay those proposals before Parliament for its consideration. He would also have discretion to present to Parliament proposals which did not command 70 per cent. support but which in his view enjoyed the support of both sides of the community in Northern Ireland. I would like to make two things clear: first, the parties in Northern Ireland will have wide discretion about the basis on which a devolved administration and assembly might be formed and operate—Her Majesty's Government are not seeking to impose any particular system; secondly, the Government would not recommend any arrangements to Parliament unless they believed them to be acceptable to both sides of the Northern Ireland community. Stable government can only come from such acceptability. If Parliament approves the assembly's recommendations, powers would be devolved by order in council.

"The assembly will have the option of moving to full devolution of powers from the outset or, if it seems easier to achieve agreement on devolving the responsibilities of only some Northern Ireland departments, to make proposals for partial devolution.

"The arrangements will be flexible in that partial devolution could lead on to further or full devolution. And if the agreement on which devolution was based collapsed and could not be re-established, it would be possible for the assembly to revert to its scrutinising, consultative and deliberative functions, with the Secretary of State taking back other responsibilities.

"Direct rule has served Northern Ireland well. It was, however, introduced as a temporary arrangement. It does not provide satisfactory political structures through which a divided community in Northern Ireland can make the necessary mutual accommodations to tackle its special problems. For Northern Ireland requires new political arrangements suited to its unique character. These must reflect the history of the Province and its long experience of devolved government, and must recognise and respect the differences of identity and aspiration which exist there. The proposals in the White Paper take account of these circumstances. At the same time they are firmly based upon Northern Ireland's position as a constituent part of the United Kingdom for so long as that is the wish of the people of Northern Ireland.

"The Government are convinced that good relations with the Republic of Ireland are of great importance. These relations are for the sovereign Governments and Parliaments. It is for the London and Dublin Parliaments to consider whether the governmental meetings of the Anglo-Irish Intergovernmental Council should be complemented by an Anglo-Irish body at parliamentary level in which members of an elected assembly in Northern Ireland could take part. In addition, it would remain open to a devolved administration in Northern Ireland to make such bilateral arrangements and agreements with the Government of the Republic as it wished concerning the matters for which it is responsible.

"The problems of Northern Ireland are formidable. The evil of terrorism has struck at the lives and expectations of ordinary people, Catholic and Protestant alike, for far too long. The economic decline is more acute and more intractable than elsewhere in the United Kingdom. The Government believe that the defeat of terrorism, the recovery of the economy and the establishment of effective political institutions go together and support one another. An end to the political deadlock of recent years offers the best hope of a sustained improvement in the economy and in security.

"The proposals in the White Paper are fair and flexible. Like all proposals for Northern Ireland, they involve risk and controversy. The Government in no way underestimate the magnitude of the task or the strains any proposals will have to bear. But they also offer an opportunity which, with time and patience and the continued commitment and goodwill of Parliament, may be exploited to the advantage and relief of all the people in Northern Ireland."

My Lords, that ends my right honourable friend's Statement.

4.8 p.m.

Lord Blease

My Lords, we are grateful to the noble Earl the Minister, Lord Gowrie, for repeating in this House the Statement made by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in another place. The announcement made today by Mr. James Prior about the Government's new political initiative concerning Northern Ireland has been anticipated for some months, and especially during the past four weeks. There has been a continuous stream of statements, reports of meetings, and pronouncements by the Northern Ireland Office, and by politicians of various groupings, about the proposed devolved political powers and the structures of government for the Province. I would like to say that I am aware that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and the noble Earl have, in my view, worked earnestly and energetically to get the developments to this particular stage.

There have been the predictable political posturings and entrenched attitudes to these developments. Some of these positions are understandable; they are born out of bitter sectarianism; some arise from the years of fear, terrorism, murder and destruction; some are perpetrated through the ugly exploitation of a few rabid politicians who play upon the differing traditions of the people of the Province.

From these Benches we welcome the flexibility of the proposals in the Statement, and the opportunity that the new political initiative should give to the people of Northern Ireland to find peaceable and positive solutions to the many and terrible problems of the Province. The proposals involve considerable risk and possible emotive controversy. While much of the responsibility for the way forward lies with the Northern Ireland people, at the same time the United Kingdom Government must continue to help in the creation of a stable political framework in which community peace, improved security and social and economic progress can be built.

It is difficult at this stage to make other than a few general observations on the statement about the political developments. I would assume that we shall have an early opportunity in this House to debate in more detail the White Paper and the proposed way forward by order in council. There are a number of procedural arrangements which I consider require considerable clarification. I would hope that in the interim the United Kingdom Government and the Northern Ireland Office will continue to seek to provide adequate and appropriate security and economic measures. There should be no letting up on both of those vital fronts in any way forward to a political arrangement.

It is also hoped that all the consultations, discussions and debate which ensue in the interim with the interested parties will be conducted with the greatest possible degree of openness and frankness. It is my opinion that for future peace and prosperity in Ireland there is nothing to be gained by secret diplomacy, private deals or ad hoc agreements.

While I hold that it is the responsibility of all the people of Northern Ireland to find a system of devolved government which will promote harmony, trust and respect for all, I equally hold that it is the responsibility of the United Kingdom Government to help and support every step towards the achievement of parliamentary democracy in the Province. There is a great need at this time for both traditions in Northern Ireland and the United Kingdom Government to work together with honesty, goodwill and respect for each other. If we fail together then the only persons to gain are the men of violence. I wish to support at this stage the Statement made by the noble Earl and I shall look forward to further exchanges as regards the possible arrangements for political development.

Lord Hampton

My Lords, I, too, should like to thank the noble Earl for repeating the Statement for his right honourable friend. I think that we are in danger of feeling a sense of anti-climax not only because of the tragic events in the Falkland Islands which dominate the political scene at the moment, but also because on so many occasions the Secretary of State's proposals seem to have been published in the papers with little tables saying how the Catholics react, how the Protestants react and that we should take no notice of it anyway. But it is essential that we should turn to this highly important matter now.

We welcome the Statement because, as a party, we believe in devolved government. It seems to me, from the discussions that we have in this House on the orders, that it would make much greater sense if the people from Northern Ireland did not have to travel over here at considerable trouble but could discuss the matter in their homeland.

There is one matter that I should like to raise with the noble Earl. I am not certain whether I missed this point but I understood that the assembly would normally have the opportunity to comment on draft orders in council. I am sure that the House will wish to take careful account of these comments. I am not certain whether I heard the noble Earl mention that, but it may be that my attention was distracted for a moment. This has been described elsewhere in the press as rolling devolution. It comes by stages. There is no imposition. I think that the noble Earl will not be surprised if we say we shall encourage the use of proportional representation when we get to it.

The next point that I wish to make is that if unionists wish to remain in the United Kingdom, we believe it should be made clear to them that their co-operation in finding a way forward is essential. They cannot have it both ways. They cannot say that they are loyalists and then make everything as difficult as possible. I agree that direct rule has worked well, but for practically everyone it has only been second best. I believe that failure to proceed now would be a failure of the Northern Ireland politicians and the Northern Ireland people behind them, and not of the Secretary of State. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Blease, on the need for co-operation as regards this matter. We agree that there is a vital need for good relations with Eire. That is another matter which has to be kept in the balance. The tragic economic situation in Ulster emphasises the need for maximum co-operation and effort all round. Obviously details of how to proceed will have to be worked out with greater time to study the proposals in the White Paper, But we hope to be able to support the proposals wholeheartedly.

I should like to refer to the closing paragraph of the Statement which suggests the right mood. It says that the proposals: offer an opportunity which, with time and patience and the continued commitment and goodwill of Parliament, may be exploited to the advantage and relief of all the people in Northern Ireland ". We very much hope to help that come about.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, on a sad and worrying day I am really most grateful for the welcome from the official Opposition Front Benches which I have just received for my right honourable friend's Statement. That is very gratifying to us and I hope that the remarks of both noble Lords will be heard in Northern Ireland itself. The noble Lord, Lord Blease, said that there had been a stream of statements by politicians as well as leaks and speculation. I think that that is the ordinary hazard of the consultative process. In fact, I do not think that it was so much a problem of leaks as a question of the people whom we consulted going out and issuing press notices quite overtly and right away the moment we had finished talking to them. But that is part of the process, and we certainly make no criticism of that.

I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Blease, who has so much experience of the Province and is so widely respected there, welcomes the flexibility of the package. No British Government can impose their own views on the Province or the views of one side of the community in Northern Ireland on the other. Our proposals are designed to provide a framework within which the Northern Ireland people and their representatives can have the opportunity to devise the necessary arrangements for progress there. The noble Lord, Lord Blease, echoed me in saying that of course there was risk here. But there is also considerable risk in standing still. Where security is concerned, we have achieved some improvement, although not enough. We wish to sustain that improvement and we wish the progress necessary for the improvement to continue.

Until such time as the people of Northern Ireland and their elected representatives decide to make proposals to us by which powers could be devolved back, direct rule will, of course, continue, as the noble Lord required, with great attention to both economic and security issues. But I for one welcome enormously what the noble Lord said about both traditions in Northern Ireland having to recognise each other and having to work together. That is very much the spirit of the White Paper which we shall be publishing in a few minutes.

I also agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hampton, that here, of course, there is not sufficient Parliamentary scrutiny or always scrutiny by the most appropriate people, of matters of very great concern to the Province. I can confirm to him that it will be for the assembly to comment on the draft orders and I am sure that Parliament as a whole and your Lordships' House will take their comments into close consideration. Direct rule has, I think, worked, but it is a second best and the people of that lovely part of the Kingdom with their great and productive traditions deserve rather more than second best.

4.19 p.m.

Lord Donaldson of Kingsbridge

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, owing to the rather foolish convention by which third and later speakers must ask questions and not make comments, I shall ask him several times "Whether he is aware of" things which I think he probably is aware of? Is the noble Earl aware, for example, that from this Bench we endorse entirely this latest effort to return gradually to devolved government? Is he aware that we have always taken the view that direct rule was not permanent but only temporary? Is he aware that we cannot produce effective politicians unless they are allowed to take part in government as well as politics? Is he aware that one of the difficulties in Northern Ireland over the past few years, since government was exercised at Stormont, has been that no responsible duties at all have been laid on politicians? Is the noble Lord aware that we found a number of very competent and effective politicians in the Stormont experiment, and that it is a great pity that it was sabotaged?

In view of the advisory and consultative form that the Secretary of State is proposing, has the noble Earl considered sending two members of each party to Hong Kong to see how they do it there? I returned from there on Saturday, and it is remarkable that there they have a Governor, an administration and a number of specific consultative groups who are listened to very closely and for whom the Government have the greatest respect, and that form of Government works there extremely well. The noble Earl is aware—I shall not ask whether he is—that matters are much more difficult than that in Northern Ireland, but I think that it is an example which could be pointed out to the politicians with whom he has to deal.

Finally, I was very glad to see that the right of Northern Ireland to remain within this country is, once again, stated in the Statement. As a party which is entirely bipartisan at the moment, we fully support this move by the Government.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, again, I am very grateful for that endorsement of my right honourable friend's Statement. It is particularly welcome, coming as it does from a noble Lord with considerable distinguished service and experience as a Minister in Northern Ireland, albeit in another political incarnation. I would also endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Donaldson, has said about the competence of Northern Ireland politicians. We would just ask them now to face their own reality squarely and to start working together for the good of all. If I suggested in the Province that Northern Ireland politicians should go to Hong Kong, I might be open to misinterpretation, but I will certainly draw to their attention the point which the noble Lord has made.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, is the noble Earl, Lord Gowrie, aware that none of the somewhat long statements that we have heard from the Leaders of the Oppositions has elicited the important element in this problem, which is that in the opening Statement the noble Earl failed (nor did any of those who followed him deal with the subject) to state whether the new proposals, the new device, or apparently new device—because, as we are all aware, the proposal for a devolved government is far from being original—have received the majority consent of any of the sections in Northern Ireland? Or is it just an attempt on the part of a new Minister, who realises that his predecessors have failed to solve the problem, to solve it by producing what might be called a gimmick, just a leftover from a previous suggested solution? Is the noble Earl aware of all that, or does he come to the House making a Statement about what is to happen in the future, based on a White Paper, without making it quite clear to Members of your Lordships' House that these proposals have the consent of any of the majorities on either side, either those on the Orange side or those in the minority? Unless he can do that, I suggest that they are just wasting their time.

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has slightly misunderstood what 1 said. I said very clearly that no British Government can impose their own views on the Province. Nevertheless, it is also true—and the noble Lord with his experience will be aware of this—that the views of one side of a divided community in Northern Ireland cannot be imposed on the other. That is one of the principal reasons why the power-sharing experiment failed. As a result of that failure, the United Kingdom Government as a whole—the British Government—had to take back powers, and they are now simply spelling out the terms under which they would be prepared to devolve powers again should the people of Northern Ireland and their representatives wish to have those powers devolved back.

Certainly in the six months that I have spent in the Province, I have had wide representations of a desire for greater local autonomy and a restoration of responsibility. With his customary acuteness, the noble Lord is quite right in saying that the political groupings make statements in which they declare that they will not co-operate with each other. But if they are not prepared to do so, direct rule of course will continue, with the added bonus of more scrutiny of its procedures by regionally-elected representatives. However, my own view, for what it is worth, is that there is a great hunger on the part of the people of Northern Ireland to put some pressure on their representatives to make the necessary, perhaps limited, mutual accommodations, one with another, across the community divide in order to improve what is a rapidly deteriorating situation there.

Lord Monson

My Lords, is the noble Earl aware that, according to a recent public opinion poll, no less than 74 per cent. of the population of Northern Ireland would be content with full integration with the rest of the United Kingdom? This fact has been known for some considerable time. Can the noble Earl say why no attention appears to have been paid to this majority point of view?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, the Government are constantly paying attention to points of view, though, of course, one particular poll does not make a summer. But where the issue of full integration with the United Kingdom is concerned, the role of Northern Ireland as a constituent part of the United Kingdom has been made quite clear by legislation and by myself in my Statement. If the noble Lord means by full integration a form of extra or improved tier of local government in Northern Ireland, I can only say to him that that does not evade the responsibilities of elected representatives there to make the same mutual accommodations and confront the same dilemmas inherent in Northern Ireland's unique political history and character, as I mentioned only a moment ago.

Lord Vaizey

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that these proposals will be warmly welcomed by most responsible people who have been involved with the question of Ireland and Northern Ireland? Is he further aware that the reaction of politicians in the North of Ireland to these proposals will be a test of their sincerity and their statesmanship? Is he also able to say at this stage whether in the long run, assuming that the assembly is formed and begins to work successfully, it would be possible to hand over supervision of the police force?— which has been a major source of worry to both sides of the community—ultimately the test of the responsibility of the assembly in important matters?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, the bulk of law and order responsibilities—for example, the Royal Ulster Constabulary, the criminal law and prosecutions, and the treatment of offenders—are in the reserved category of powers and, therefore, they could, as my noble friend appears to imply, be devolved at some time in the future, though of course the British Government would have to be conscious on these matters, as well as on other matters, that the arrangements under which they were being devolved were broadly acceptable to both communities in the way in which the general devolution proposals also have to be.

Lord Blease

My Lords, before the noble Earl sits down, I asked him a question about possible time for a debate on the White Paper in this House. If he is not able to answer that at this time, will he use his good offices to request a debate on the White Paper?

The Earl of Gowrie

My Lords, I shall certainly draw that to the attention of my noble friend the Chief Whip. As the noble Lord will be aware, these are not matters for me but for the usual channels. The noble Lord makes his views and desires perfectly clear, and they will of course be taken into account.