HL Deb 01 April 1982 vol 428 cc1469-72

3.15 p.m.

Lord Gridley

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government to what extent research carried out in the Ministry of Defence is made known to British industry.

Viscount Long

My Lords, defence research and technology is made widely available to British industry, subject to security constraints. We make research reports available; our scientists publish their results, attend symposia and join learned societies; we run joint consultative committees with industry covering particular research areas; we join with industry in developing technologies of mutual interest; and, most importantly, firms undertaking defence work are in general free to use the results for non-defence applications.

Lord Gridley

My Lords, while I thank my noble friend for that Answer and appreciate what the Government are doing at the present time in the various schemes to help industry, I wonder whether I may put to my noble friend that news of this character might be more speedily disseminated if someone were made responsible, or if arrangements were made within the Ministry of Defence to pass to industry discoveries of an unclassified nature which might have a competitive edge. Would my noble friend give me an answer as to whether the Government are aware that this type of procedure is in operation in the United States and Japan?

Viscount Long

My Lords, in addition to the publication of results in learned journals and participation of our scientists in symposia, we contribute to the Department of Industry's Tech Alert Scheme for circulating information to industry. We also make unclassified reports available through the Department of Industry's Technical Reports Centre, now transferring to the British Library. However, we recognise that firms are not always aware of what information may be available and we are currently looking into possible ways of extending the dissemination. The Ministry of Defence welcome the fact that the National Enterprise Development Organisation have asked Sir Ieuan Maddock to look into the exploitation of defence R and D in the electronics industry, and we intend to co-operate fully with this inquiry. I hope that that helps my noble friend.

Lord Peart

My Lords, I am grateful for that answer. It is a good answer. The Ministry of Defence has great possibilities for development in the development areas. Are there any plans to make sure that the development areas also get their fair share? This would help to cure unemployment and would be a great contribution.

Viscount Long

My Lords, my reply to the noble Lord is that really we come to the spin-off from Ministry of Defence R and D through industry and I think through the construction world, as such, for development. I think you will find that is where it comes in.

Lord Avebury

My Lords, in warmly welcoming the initiative the Government have taken in inviting Sir Ieuan Maddock to undertake this study, may I ask the noble Viscount whether the exact terms of reference given to Sir Ieuan will be published either in the form of an addendum to the Official Report or otherwise?

Viscount Long

My Lords, of course this has come from the House of Lords' scientific body, and I should think that they in turn will have the report, and I am sure your Lordships will receive it in due course when it is ready in the Library.

The Earl of Halsbury

My Lords, would the noble Viscount accept that the only certain way of ensuring that the results of defence research end in industry is to have the research done in industry under contract, as they do it in America, thereby ensuring that not only the knowledge but the associated knowhow vests where it starts?

Viscount Long

I note, my Lords, that the noble Earl has referred again to the question of the American way of dealing with knowhow. I well remember the way in which they dealt with the spacecraft secrets; once NASA had finished with them, the secrets were given to the Library so that everybody could see them. That is what I think the Ministry of Defence will try to do, anyway.

Lord Mayhew

My Lords, would the Minister agree that there are really two processes involved, dissemination and declassification? What arrangements are there in the Ministry for the regular declassification of secret research, just as there are for the declassification of secret papers?

Viscount Long

I am unable to answer that question, my Lords, and I will write to the noble Lord.

Lord Shinwell

My Lords, is it possible to estimate in financial terms the value of the transfer of defence research to industry?

Viscount Long

My Lords, it was stated in the report on R and D that, out of a total estimated procurement expenditure of some £5,800 million for the defence estimates for 1981–82, there was provision for nearly £1,700 million to be spent on research and development—about £260 million for research and £1,420 million for development—and I think that gives the noble Lord the information he requires.

Lord Wynne-Jones

Is the noble Viscount aware, my Lords, that in certain fields of scientific research some of the best work is done in Government establishments, including the Ministry of Defence? Is he aware, for example, that, in the sphere of batteries and electro-chemical work, some exceptionally good work has been done? Does he appreciate that that work is not normally published simply because the people engaged in it are not doing work which is regarded as fundamental, although it is extremely important industrially? Would he agree that it is very important that a method should be found of transmitting those results to industry? Are the Government representatives of the Department of Industry in various parts of the country able to convey to firms in their regions the results of that work? I am not referring to large firms—I do not worry about them; they have their own methods of getting the results—but the small firms.

Viscount Long

First, my Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his tribute to the work that goes on on the scientific side at the Ministry of Defence and the work that is pushed on to the civil side. There is the problem of trying to make firms aware of the existence of defence research results which they could exploit. We recognise that the Tech Alert Scheme and the Department of Industry's Technical Reports Centre may, by themselves, not be totally adequate and we are currently looking into how the process of dissemination might be improved.

A particular problem is caused by the intellectual property rights limitation on the dissemination of information from extramural research contracts. It is difficult to ensure that that information reaches all those in industry. We could make use of it, particularly through non-defence manufacturers, and that is why I announced to your Lordships that Sir Ieuan Maddock would be heading an investigation to see if more information can get through to the smaller industries.

Lord Brockway

My Lords, while I appreciate what the Minister said about help to industry, may I ask the Government to consider whether more direct research might be made through the Government for industry? Am I right in thinking that four-fifths of Government aided research is for military equipment?

Viscount Long

Although that is not quite right, my Lords, I do not have the correct figure to which the noble Lord referred. It is vitally important that the two sectors, the Ministry of Defence and private industry, work together. Thereby one gets a better job done, more competitiveness and better prices.