§ The Earl of KimberleyMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in view of fresh evidence disclosing mistakes of fact and erroneous assumptions in the Working Group's Report (31st October 1980) over the allegations made by prisoners of war that monies deducted from their pay were wrongly handed over to the Treasury, they are now prepared to open an independent inquiry to reconsider the representations of the ex-prisoners.
§ The Minister of State for Defence Procurement (Viscount Trenchard)My Lords. I do not believe that any further inquiry would be useful. The noble Earl and his unofficial committee saw my honourable friend the Under-Secretary of State for Defence Procurement, Mr. Geoffrey Pattie, on 12th May 1981 and were informed that the Government did not believe that there was any fresh evidence which justified changing any of the conclusions of the inquiry carried out by my honourable friend and tabled in this House on 31st October 1980.
§ The Earl of KimberleyMy Lords, may I thank my noble friend for a reply which some of the unofficial committee will regard as being very unsatisfactory? In view of the fact that an inquiry will not take place, may I ask him whether he would mind my putting down an Unstarred Question after the Christmas Recess?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, it is not for me to mind or not mind what my noble friend does and arranges with the business managers. I should only like to add that there is no lack of sympathy for ex-prisoners of war, particularly those who may be suffering from ill-health or conditions that may have developed from that; and that my predecessors at the Ministry of Defence and elsewhere have examined all these questions with the greatest sympathy. If my noble friend still wishes to pursue it, that is his decision not mine.
Lord Bruce of DoningtonMy Lords, is the noble Viscount aware that there is still a substantial amount of misgiving in the country at large about the treatment of these ex-prisoners of war? Does he not think it wise in all the circumstances to open up the inquiry to a far greater degree than was possible in the past? 1122 If there is a substantial suggestion of injustice, does the noble Viscount agree that it would be wise to allay that as quickly as possible?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I do not think a completely definitive answer in the case of every ex-prisoner of war as to the exact justice of the situation 36 years ago is possible. I think all the evidence that exists—contemporary evidence—and all the memories that have been put together have been heard and examined. It was for that reason that I said I could not see how a further inquiry could indeed do what the noble Lord wishes it to do—allay anxiety as to whether there may or may not have been individual cases of injustice 36 years ago.
§ Lord ShinwellMy Lords, would not the noble Viscount agree that, now that the noble Earl has announced that he proposes to put down on the Order Paper an Unstarred Question, and presumably will produce new evidence not yet available to this or the other House, it would be far better not to press the matter further until we have the new evidence?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, the fresh evidence to which my noble friend is referring is evidence which he and his unofficial committee submitted to us at the end of 1980 which led finally to the meeting in May 1981. So that has been examined, but I am in the hands of the House, the noble Earl and the business managers. I understand the feeling on the subject; I merely say, as the Minister who has come to this matter most recently, and having read the detail of the background, that I do not think there is any further way forward.
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighMy Lords, is the noble Earl aware what actually took place for the people concerned? If I may declare an interest, I was a prisoner for a year. After I escaped, I had 15 months behind the lines before I was able to get back home. When I went to Cox and Kings, who were the agents, as the noble Earl will know, I had to accept what they said I was due to, and there was no evidence given us as to what we should receive. They just said: "Right, you were away for so long. You are paid as a major". So much was deducted—
§ Lord Clifford of ChudleighHow were we to know whether this was correct or not? Can the noble Viscount do something to put our minds at rest and assure us that we were fairly treated?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I can only suggest that the noble Lord reads the report of my honourable friend which was tabled on 31st October which goes into all of those questions, and, so far as is possible, gives the answers.
§ Lord Campbell of AllowayMy Lords, if my noble friend Lord Kimberley will forgive a question contrary to the tenor of his Question, may I ask my noble friend 1123 the Minister this: Assuming that there have been maladministrations in the past, is he aware that among those of us erstwhile uninvited guests of the Third German Reich there is a very substantial body of opinion which holds the view that it is wholly inappropriate today, in view of the delay of some 35 years, the difficulties attendant upon that delay of due administration and inquiry, and the stringency of the economic situation today, that any consideration should be given to repayment of these claims other than in cases of proven hardship and current need?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for that statement of opinion. The economic circumstances have not entered into the Government's decision on this question. I do not think that I can add to my further replies in any other way.
§ Lord BrayeMy Lords, can the noble Viscount tell us whether all the Japanese ex-prisoners of war have been paid yet?
§ Viscount TrenchardMy Lords, I am not aware of the detailed answer to that question. I will let the noble Lord know.