§ 4.5 p.m.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, with the permission of the House, I will repeat a Statement being made in another place in answer to a Private Notice Question on the shooting down of a Viscount airliner in Rhodesia yesterday evening. The Statement is as follows:
"Fifty nine people were killed including, according to Press reports, at least two United Kingdom citizens, when a Rhodesian civilian airliner crashed near Kariba yesterday. According to the news agencies, the Patriotic Front claim to have been responsible. I am sure the whole House will deplore 1127 this senseless attack, involving further tragic loss of innocent lives in Rhodesia. The escalation of the war reinforces our determination to continue our efforts to bring an end to the fighting by negotiations within a framework likely to prove acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole. Until that happens we fear that the drift into uncontrolled violence and chaos will continue."
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for having read that Statement, may I tell him—I am sure he will not be surprised to learn this—that we are very dissatisfied with its tone? We on this side of the House totally condemn, as I am sure all noble Lords will, this barbarous action of shooting down a civilian aircraft containing innocent civilians who, according to the Press statement, were both black and white. This action of aggression surely confirms more strongly than ever that the liberation movements are not concerned with a struggle for legitimate rights of rule by the majority over a minority but with a struggle for personal power.
What regrettably seems to be tacitly, if not openly, encouraged by the Foreign Secretary and Her Majesty's Government is the hope that eventually the situation in Rhodesia will deteriorate to such a state that peace will be impossible. That appears to be the impression being given at the moment, and I very much hope that in this case we are misinterpreting their ultimate intentions for the fate of Rhodesia and all Rhodesians, both black and white.
Therefore, we on this side of the House would ask Her Majesty's Government seriously to consider, first, facilitating the holding of free and fair elections in April, which is the intention as stated of the present members of the internal settlement; and, secondly, that the Government should undertake to seek the support of the international community to recognise the legitimacy and outcome of the elections as an example of the democratic process which, as we know in this country, is not always implemented by other member States of the United Nations.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, we join S with the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, in 1128 condemning this outrage; naturally we do. What Mr, Joshua Nkomo thinks he can gain by this kind of atrocity I really do not know. One would have thought that surely there must be some kind of code of conduct even among guerrillas. It cannot do his own cause any good; it might even increase the present unpopularity of his rival Mr. Mugabe; but that is another matter.
With the general content of the Statement, however, we on these Benches would not quarrel so much as did Lady Elles. It says:
The escalation of the war reinforces our determination to continue our efforts to bring an end to the fighting by negotiations within a framework likely to prove acceptable to the people of Rhodesia as a whole".Surely there is no objection to that as such. The question is whether the Government have any present intention of recognising the internal settlement as a result of the coming elections. That, to some extent, I suppose depends on the evident support, if such emerges, from those elections, and that has to be determined. Whether it would be desirable to send out any kind of observers to those elections, to determine whether it has that over- whelming support, is another matter; but I should have thought the Government might seriously consider doing that.
§ 4.10 p.m.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Elles, and the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, for their comments. Lady Elles used the word "condemn" whereas the Statement used the word "deplore". I would certainly go along with the noble Baroness in inserting that word, which was a word used by Lord Gladwyn. We all, irrespective of Party—here or in Rhodesia, I would hope—deeply condemn this senseless outrage. It is not the first of its kind.
However, it is not easy to charter a proper course ahead. The noble Baroness suggested—I hope that I misunderstood her—that somehow the present Prime Minister and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State were tacitly encouraging the situation to deteriorate. I thought that they were working might and main to rescue the atrocious situation which is developing and change it into a situation which would be much more 1129 favourable in terms of achieving a reasonable settlement.
The noble Baroness made two points about free and fair elections. Quite frankly, we do not see that the April elections are based on what could reasonably be accepted as a free and fair basis. I will not retread the reasons for this, but, equally, in the spirit of my right honourable friend's comments on the report of Mr. Hughes, we look for the earliest possible basis on which we could fruitfully and meaningfully convene a conference of all concerned.
It would I believe be most misleading—and here I join with the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, who made a temperate and helpful comment—to assume that resistance to an all-Party meeting on the basis, broadly speaking, of the Anglo-American proposals comes from one side more than from the other. They all have objections to this—the Salisbury group, as well as the Patriotic Front. The task of British statesmanship, from whichever side of the House it may come, is to try to get the people to come together on the basis of the proposals which still stand as the best possible basis for agreement.
With regard to elections, I join once more with the noble Lord. We are speaking of a country 90 per cent. of which is subject to martial law, and in which there is Press and radio censorship. Everyone knows this, and we must not spend too much time considering whether we could do this or that in the light of the results of those elections, if elections they are. What we need to do—and if possible to anticipate April—is to get agreement for a ceasefire, followed immediately by really free and fair elections under UN auspices.
§ Lord SHINWELLMy Lords, my noble friend is in some difficulty, but I should like to ask what I regard as a simple, but direct question. This involves some repetition because the matter was raised quite recently. In view of Nkomo's declaration in accepting responsibility for this terrible action, and moreover, in view of the fact that the weapon used against the Viscount aircraft was obviously provided by the Soviet Union—a SAM—how can my noble friend justify the Government's continued belief that it is possible to promote an embracing conference, 1130 including the Patriotic Front, of which Nkomo and Mugabe are the leaders? How is it possible to do that? Has the time not come when we must grasp the nettle, and say that the Rhodesians must have the election shortly, and that we, the British Government, must set aside all questions of legality, UDI, and all the rest of it, which I know involve difficulties, and all of which is regrettable, and must seek to help the new Rhodesians, black and white, to stabilise their country? We ought to recognise them in such a situation.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, of course what my noble friend has just said is entitled to very careful consideration, and undoubtedly it will receive precisely that. At the moment I shall address myself only to the question he put to me: how could we, I presume in any conceivable circumstances, justify inviting certain people, who are deemed to be guilty of certain acts, to a conference table? This is a question which is put to us from time to time by precisely the opposite side about the others involved. Everybody would like to select their own conferees, and looking at history one sees that this country has rather a fruitful record of convening effective conferences precisely from the ranks of those who, during hostilities, were guilty of the most appalling acts.
§ Viscount BOYD of MERTONMy Lords, while agreeing with all that the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, has just said, I should like to ask the Minister, has not the time now arrived when those responsible for abominable crimes of this kind should no longer have a veto on round table talks?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I entirely agree that no one should have a veto on round table talks; but everybody is trying to exercise a veto on round table talks, just as they are trying to select their own fellow conferees. It is said that the Salisbury Group, by refusing to accept the possibility of UN-supervised elections, and insisting upon their own, are exercising a veto; and so one goes on. I think we must agree that no one has a veto, proceed on that assumption, and watch for the earliest possible suitable circumstances in which the Prime Minister of this country can, as he said 1131 he would, take the lead in calling such a conference.
§ The Earl of KIMBERLEYMy Lords, would not the Minister agree that it is probably obvious that Mr. Nkomo and Mr. Mugabe, by refusing to come to the conference table until such time as the elections are held—whether or not they be free elections—are making quite certain that the elections will not be free?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is a speculation as to their calculations and actions. All I can say is that in April last year they came a very long way forward to meet the requirements of the Anglo-American proposals. Unfortunately, it was during last summer and well into the autumn that the Salisbury group resisted those concessions. Now the blame is not entirely on one side or the other, and I am not going to apportion blame. I agree that no one should have a veto. We must concentrate on wresting from the circumstances the earliest possible opportunity of a bold move to convene a conference, and I believe that the Prime Minister and my right honourable friend are determined to do precisely that.
Lord HOME of the HIRSELMy Lords, from a reply given by the noble Lord last week, I got the impression that one of the main obstacles to the Government's encouragement of the provisional Government's plans for the future of Rhodesia was the arrangements for protecting the white minority. First, I wish to ask the noble Lord whether that is so. Is that the obstacle that the noble Lord sees in his right honourable friend? Secondly, does he not remember that the Sixth Principle—the protection of the white minority—was that which was added to the Five Principles by Sir Harold Wilson when he was Prime Minister?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I should be surprised and very sorry indeed if I gave that impression. Clearly, any fair and durable solution of the Rhodesian question would have to include justice for all the minorities in that country—and they are not all simply white—and I would certainly include justice for the white element in that country. I believe that I have stressed this more than once in debates in this House. I most 1132 certainly hope that nothing I said last week, or at any time, has given the impression to which the noble Lord has referred. I shall be consulting Hansard very carefully in view of what the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, has said.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEMy Lords, I do not in the least impute any kind of devious motive to the noble Lord or his colleagues, and I wish to pay my continued tribute to the unfailing patience and courtesy with which the noble Lord answers every question put to him, from whatever quarter. Nevertheless, does he realise that some of us at least believe that, by appearing to be impartial between a party which offers the ballot box, however imperfectly it may be used in the circumstances, and a party which uses as a weapon the murder of innocent civilians by knocking down, by sophisticated weapons, a civilian plane, the Government may in the end find that they have betrayed the true interests of civilisation?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I cannot agree with the full question, but I cannot take exception to what the noble and learned Lord said up to the final sentence. I hope that we will not ascribe to this or any other Government either a tacit or a deliberate intention to conduce to a deterioration of the situation. That would be an accusation of enormity which I would hope noble Lords in every part of the House would refute. As my right honourable friend and Mr. Vance decided on 2nd and 3rd February, when they last met on this matter, we intend to press forward with the Anglo-American proposals, which, in their basis and their framework, still present the best opportunity for a fair and durable solution. We are watching the situation extremely closely, precisely with a view to moving as quickly as possible to the convening of a conference.
§ The Earl of ONSLOWMy Lords, could the noble Lord give us an undertaking that none of the ground-to-air missiles supplied to the Zambian Government by Her Majesty's Government has in any way got into the hands of Mr. Nkomo? That is my first question. Secondly, can he also give an undertaking to bring to the attention of his right 1133 honourable friend the statement made by Mr. Nkomo the other day, when he said that he would turn the elections into a bloodbath? Surely, if this is the case, this underlines what my noble and learned friend Lord Hailsham has said, that being impartial between somebody who is pro an election and somebody who is pro a bloodbath is not really being impartial.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, whatever Mr. Nkomo is reported to have said now or in the past, I think it would be wise to keep in mind that, when the time comes—and I hope it will come soon—people who are now, for one reason or another, unacceptable to one side or another will need to be at the conference table. As to the noble Earl's first point, on the utilisation of Zambian missiles provided by this country, we have, of course, the Zambian Government's undertaking not to use them in any way similar to that which the noble Earl has suggested.
§ Lord GLADWYNMy Lords, would the Government agree that the interests of the white members of the Kenyan community are quite adequately, or seemingly adequately, protected without any constitutional or statutory representation of the white community in the local Legislature?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, on the question of minorities and the white community in particular, I think that, as I cannot recall the precise words I used last week, I should refresh my memory. I have great respect for both noble Lords who have mentioned this, and I hope they will respect my probity in at least finding out exactly what was said.
§ Lord GORE-BOOTHMy Lords, can the Minister give us one little extra piece of comfort, which is really based on a premise raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell? Can he go so far as to tell us that the Government are in fact making studies, and indeed plans, in case the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, is right on a point on which I agree with him; namely, that the probability is more that the Patriotic Front will use force than not? If we had some assurance of this, perhaps it would dissipate a little the feeling which the Government give, I am sure quite 1134 innocently, that they always believe that this negative reply on the part of the Patriotic Front will not be forthcoming. We must provide for its happening, possibly.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I can assure my noble friend that we are in close and constant contact with everybody concerned, and that we do not ascribe to either side a monopoly of vice or of virtue in this matter. It is essential that we maintain an objective attitude if we are going to succeed in our aim of convening a conference.
§ Lord SOMERSMy Lords, is it not true that in this country those who are in prison for the crime of murder, or even lesser crimes, are not allowed to vote or to take any part in politics; and, if that is so, why should we consider it desirable to give that right to criminals in Rhodesia, who admittedly are not in prison but are every bit as much criminals?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, from where I am standing, all kinds of people ascribe criminality to all kinds of people. Where countries get into a situation like this—and, surely, the lessons of history bear this out—everybody is guilty of the most appalling atrocities. If, ahead of a conference, you are going to decide who is going to be allowed to attend, then you will never have a conference; you will have a condition of continuing hostility and destruction. However strongly noble Lords feel about these incidents, and whoever is the author of any given incident, I hope the House will give thought to the fact that we need to look ahead—and we may need to look ahead to, I hope, the fairly immediate future—to the necessity of getting together at a round table everybody involved in this situation.