HL Deb 22 February 1978 vol 389 cc157-62

2.57 p.m.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government when it is expected that the public inquiry into the proposed construction of a fourth terminal building at Heathrow Airport will commence; how long it is anticipated the inquiry will last; and, assuming the inquiry favours the project, how soon afterwards construction can commence.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, the public inquiry is expected to begin at the end of May, but it is not possible to say how long it will last. Assuming approval of the fourth terminal project, it would be for the British Airports Authority to decide when building should commence.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, is it possible for the noble Lord to say what the British Airports Authority's view is on how long construction will take?

Lord ORAM

No, my Lords, I am afraid not. The original thought was that it might be completed by 1982, but that was before the process of inquiry was entered into. That date will not now be reached.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, might I ask my noble friend whether the inquiry will include the question of access to this new airport for people dependent on public transport?

Lord ORAM

Yes, my Lords, certainly. The Government recognise the need for adequate access to major airports and will take this into account in considering schemes for roads for which they are responsible.

Lord ARDWICK

My Lords, can the noble Lord say whether the work on Terminal Two will have been finished before the inquiry into Terminal Four begins; or even whether it will be finished before the work on Terminal Four is finished?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I doubt whether it will be finished by May, but I hope that it will be finished this year.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, in view of the fact that this terminal is planned to be constructed outside the present island site in the centre of Heathrow, can the noble Lord say what communications will be provided between the new terminal and the present central area?

Lord ORAM

No, my Lords, I cannot give the exact information on that. No doubt the local authorities responsible for the roads will include this in their planning and I have no doubt that this matter will be fully considered at the inquiry.

Lord TREFGARNE

My Lords, with respect is it not the case that this has nothing to do with the local authority? It is all inside the existing boundaries of the aerodrome. I am asking about communication between the new terminal and the existing central area.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I am sorry if I misunderstood the noble Lord. That would be a matter for the British Airways Authority in achieving its plan after the conclusion of the inquiry.

Baroness BURTON of COVENTRY

My Lords, I do not know whether I am going to ask the same question as the noble Lord, Lord Trefgarne, but as the Minister said that roads would be taken into consideration, is he aware that I am concerned not only with roads but with what goes on them? Will there also be consideration of passenger conveyance on public vehicles from the centre of London to the new airport?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, it is open to anyone to make written representations to the inquiry. There is no limit on the subject matter about which people can write. Therefore I am quite sure that the matters that my noble friend has in mind will be before the inquiry.

Lord NUGENT of GUILDFORD

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, as well as conveyance to the airport, passengers will need service when they get there? Will he take into account that a great deal of extra labour will be required if this fourth terminal is brought into existence? Is he aware that there is already acute over-employment in that area and the local authorities there are extremely anxious? Will he please make sure that he hears their views and takes them into account before he considers sanctioning the fourth terminal?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, the noble Lord seemed to be addressing those remarks to me personally. It will be for the inquiry and, subsequently, for the BAA, to take these matters into account. They are important ones; I do not deny that. I will ensure that the points which the noble Lord has made are conveyed to those concerned.

Lord SEGAL

My Lords, will the fourth terminal provide for the more expeditious handling of luggage than the existing three terminals?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I have no doubt that will be looked at.

Lord PARGITER

My Lords, will my noble friend have regard to the fact that many view this area as having reached saturation point now from the transport point of view? Will he consider what the position will be with another terminal, bearing in mind the commuter traffic which goes in and out along that route every morning and night?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I am of course aware of the anxieties that have been expressed in these matters. They will undoubtedly be before the inquiry and will be raised by people like my noble friend who is particularly concerned with the amenities in the area.

3.2 p.m.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government, assuming that the public inquiry rejects the proposed construction of a fourth terminal building at Heathrow Airport, how the growth of passenger traffic to London area airports up to 1990 will be handled, given the maximum expansion of the three other airports already allowed for in Airport Policy (Cmnd. 7084).

Lord ORAM

My Lords, I would not wish to anticipate the outcome of the public inquiry, but clearly an unfavourable decision on the fourth terminal at Heathrow would introduce a new factor in the development of airports policy which the Government would have to consider.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, supposing the terminal is rejected, can the Minister explain how the passengers who they have assumed in this document will use London Airport up till 1980 will be looked after having regard to a new terminal's existence? The other London area airports will, according to this document, be at saturation point all the time up to 1980.

Lord ORAM

My Lords, the Government have explained in the White Paper to which the noble Lord refers that the expected growth in air traffic demand up to 1990 could be met by the expansion of the four London airports. Without the fourth terminal at Heathrow, capacity in the London area is likely to reach saturation earlier than expected. But traffic forecasts are inherently uncertain, and this would depend upon the actual demand that transpired.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, according to the reply, do I gather that, if there is no new terminal and the capacity of the other airports is up to saturation, the Government have no plan which they can now announce as to how they will cope with the excess at the other airports which have already reached saturation?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, of course there will be consequences which the Government will have to take into account and other airports will be affected. I should not like at this stage of the proceedings to speculate at Question Time on the particular consequences that might ensue for the other airports.

Lord DARLING of HILL-SBOROUGH

My Lords, to deal with the problem of congestion, will my noble friend ask the Government to consider now a proposal that was put forward when the Roskill Report was under consideration—that is, that the next London Airport should be built on Thorn Waste, with a direct rail link to King's Cross?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, there is a long and vexed history about this matter, with many propositions such as my noble friend is now reviving. We ought to rest on the White Paper which is now before Parliament and the inquiry which we have been discussing, and see what progress can be made on the basis of this policy.

Lord AVEBURY

My Lords, is the Minister aware that at a very interesting seminar given by BP to a number of noble Lords yesterday morning it was shown that a world supply of oil could not possibly he maintained beyond the year 1990, or thereabouts? In view of the fact that this implies diminishing supplies of oil and rapidly increasing price, would it not be realistic to assume that airline traffic will peak in about 1990? It would therefore be folly for us to provide very expensive terminal facilities which could only he used for a very limited number of years.

Lord ORAM

Yes, my Lords. Oil supply is of course one of the major factors that has to be taken into account in making forecasts of future demand. The kind of information which the noble Lord has brought forward is one of the hazards in this business. I indicated earlier that the forecasting of demand for airport facilities is a very tricky business because of the kind of factor that the noble Lord has mentioned.

Lord LEATHERLAND

My Lords, is my noble friend aware of the fact that the hidden motive behind this Question was to see that Stansted in Essex is made into a major airport? Is he aware that such a step would have the effect of destroying one of the most delightful, quiet parts of England and would do very great damage indeed to very efficient agriculture?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, my noble friend is perhaps more expert in detecting sinister motives in Questions than I am. I am sure that my noble friend, with his particular interest in Stansted, will have read the White Paper and seen what is the Government's position in respect to this.

Lord BALFOUR of INCHRYE

My Lords, in a stupid slip of the tongue used the figure 1980 when of course I meant 1990. I apologise.

Viscount MERSEY

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware there is very great concern at Gatwick Airport about the additional runways being started? Will he confirm the undertaking given on several occasions to the West Sussex County Council that there will be no further development there? Will he confirm that that is so?

Lord ORAM

My Lords, it depends what the noble Lord means by "development". He referred to a second runway. The White Paper makes it clear that there will not be a second runway. The Government have firmly made up their mind on that point. Equally, there is development proposed in the sense of a second terminal, which is another matter, of course.

The Earl of CORK and ORRERY

My Lords, is it the expectation of the Government—

Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOE

My Lords, I feel a little embarrassment about rising because I am to answer the next Question. But I think I have the feeling of the House when I say that we have had over 20 minutes on this third Question—

Several noble Lords: Hear, hear !