§ 3.20 p.m.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what advice they give to citizens of the United Kingdom and Colonies, and to other British subjects, who are resident in Zimbabwe (Rhodesia), and who attain the age when they become liable for military service in the armed forces of the illegal régime, regarding the actions they should take in relation to the call-up.
§ The MINISTER of STATE, FOREIGN and COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (Lord Goronwy-Roberts)My Lords, Rhodesian residents who are liable to call-up must themselves consider carefully whether it is in their own interests and those of Rhodesia to serve in the forces of the illegal régime.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, does the Minister realise that everyone will appreciate the Government's dilemma?—in that if they advise these citizens of ours who are called up into the armed forces of the illegal régime not to comply they would render them liable to penalties against which the Government would be unable to protect them. If citizens succeed in evading the draft and seek to enter the United Kingdom giving as one of their reasons their wish not to serve in the armed forces of the illegal régime, would the Government be prepared to give sympathetic consideration to those applications?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSCertainly, my Lords. As my noble friend 1114 who normally answers Home Office Questions at this Box said on 25th October, all these cases are and will be carefully considered on their merits and as sympathetically as possible. That assurance was repeated in another place on 14th March this year.
Lord PAGET of NORTHAMPTONMy Lords, could the noble Lord tell us how many, if any, Rhodesian residents or citizens have bothered to ask Her Majesty's Government such a silly question?
§ Lord LOVATMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether this Question is not inaccurately worded? The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has said, "Zimbabwe (Rhodesia)". May I ask the Minister whether it is not usually wrong to put the cart before the horse?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, it is quite good practice to put the horse and cart together, as in this Question.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, is not Southern Rhodesia the only legal name of the territory?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSIt is, indeed, my Lords. That is the present position. We colloquially refer to that country as "Rhodesia" and increasingly as "Zimbabwe"; but I hope that in future both names would be equally used without undue stress by members of that country or people in this country: as in Wales which we refer to either as "Wales" or Cymru.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, may I ask the Minister whether it is not the case that this is an army under an illegal government which has been in rebellion against this country? In view of that circumstance and the inevitable pressure, particularly on African Rhodesians, to join these forces, is it not desirable that the Government should make it quite clear that those who refuse to serve in an illegal army will be welcomed in this country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I should like to look into the regulations, if they can be so called, with 1115 regard to conscription under the illegal régime. My impression is that Europeans, Asians and coloureds are subject to conscription, but not Africans, as defined by the illegal régime. I believe I am right.
§ Lord KINNAIRDMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what advice he would give in this difficult circumstance?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I presume that that question was addressed to the noble Lord, Lord Avebury.
A noble Lord: Not allowed.
§ Lord AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I used the term, "Zimbabwe", because the representatives of the majority of the people in that country call the country, "Zimbabwe", and that when independence is obtained by the majority this is the name that will be given to the country?