SMOKING IN PUBLIC PLACES (Hansard, 31 March 1977)

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, the purpose of my right honourable friend's initiative is to create a climate of opinion which regards non-smoking in enclosed public places as the norm and to reduce the nuisance of polluted atmosphere for those who do not smoke. For both reasons the restriction should apply to all forms of smoking.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, does my noble friend not agree that it is presumptuous on the part of Ministers to make pronouncements of this character which they themselves know have not the force of law? Can my noble friend say whether a pronouncement, such as that which the Minister concerned made, was considered by the Cabinet, and the Cabinet arrived at a decision? Finally, does he not agree that our liberties nowadays are so few that we object to them being further restricted? Would he take it from me personally—and I can speak for many other Members of your Lordships' House—that any interference with pipe smokers, even among the pigeons in a public place like Trafalgar Square, will be strongly resisted, even to the extent of interfering with the ambitions of Mr. Callaghan and his friends when it comes to the next General Election?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
I do not quite know where to begin, my Lords. With the greatest respect to my noble friend, I should point out that it is the responsibility of my Department to concern itself with the health of the people. I think, too, that we must bear in mind that more than half the adults in this country are now non-smokers, and, that being the case, it seems to be reasonable that adequate provision should be made for non-smokers. I should also point out that market research shows that most smokers themselves feel that there should be further restriction on smoking in public places. This is not a question of legislation. My right honourable friend has made it perfectly clear that he proposes to do this, we hope, by persuasion and education.

§ Lord MACKIE of BENSHIE
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the noble Lord who asked the Question is the greatest example which the Minister could have of the benefits of pipe smoking to the health of the nation?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, there are peculiarities in every sphere.

§ Lord BLYTON
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I agree with my noble friend—

Several noble Lords
Order, order!

§ Lord PLATT
My Lords, although I recognise and respect the views of the noble Lord, Lord Shinwell, when somebody in the next place lights a pipe just as I am about to have lunch, I feel that it is my liberty that is being interfered with and not his. I am sorry, my Lords, that should have been a question. I beg your pardon.

§ Lord BLYTON
My Lords, with regard to the discrimination between nonsmokers and smokers, is the Minister aware that there is now being developed a policy of apartheid in which the cigarette smoker is penalised and the tobacco smoker is left alone?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, although pipe smoking is less dangerous than cigarette smoking to the health of the smoker, one must bear in mind that it causes equal discomfort and distress to the non-smoker.

Lord CAMPBELL of CROY
My Lords, in order to set an example, will members of the Government refrain from smoking pipes when they appear on television?

§ Lord SEGAL
My Lords, since pipe tobacco has been granted a reprieve in Tuesday's Budget, should not pipe smokers be content for the moment with small mercies?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, I think that I would subscribe to the view of my noble friend.

§ Lord SHINWELL
My Lords, will my noble friend be kind enough to reply to my original supplementary question? It was this: has this pronouncement the force of law? That is the first point. Secondly, was it considered by the Cabinet, and did the Cabinet arrive at a decision which entitled the Minister to make such a pronouncement?

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, I pointed out that this pronouncement has not the force of law. There is no intention, certainly not at this stage, to introduce legislation. I said that my right honourable friend wants to deal with this matter by way of persuasion and education. This is not, I believe, a decision of the Cabinet. It is a matter arising from the view of, and the Statement made quite recently by, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State in charge of the Social Services, whose responsibility it is to concern himself with the health of the nation.

§ Lord SLATER
My Lords, is my noble friend aware that on one occasion a previous Chancellor of the Exchequer made a Statement in the other place that the taxation that was imposed upon people who smoked cigarettes helped to pay for the State educational system in our country and assisted towards meeting the expenses incurred in the National Health Service.

§ Lord WELLS-PESTELL
My Lords, I think it would be regrettable for any Government to raise money irrespective of the rights and wrongs of the situation or the particular sphere from which the money is to be obtained. If it is felt that a certain course should be taken in the 1034 best interests of the nation, then I think that money must be found from other sources.

§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONE
In any case, my Lords, if we stopped smoking would not the taxable capacity of the nation he vastly increased?