HL Deb 21 July 1977 vol 386 cc414-6

3.11 p.m.

Lord KENNET

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether the new version of the White Paper Food from Our Own Resources which has been announced for next year will, unlike the earlier version, cover fish and, if not, why not.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, the 1975 White Paper did not extend to fishery matters because the Government recognised that the fishing industry faced major uncertainties, placing it in a fundamentally different position from that of agriculture and necessitating separate consideration. That remains the Government's view today.

Lord KENNET

My Lords, is it really the Government's view that, if an industry faces major uncertainties, that is a reason for not considering it in a White Paper or a Green Paper? Should that not be a reason for considering it? If the uncertainties are present, as indeed they are, is it not possible to take maximum and minimum estimates of what may be the yield of fish in our waters in the future and to base certain arguments thereon? Without these, the White Paper as a whole will be virtually valueless. On the other hand, would they not provide useful ammunition for our negotiations in Brussels as well as for public education?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, circumstances generally in the agricultural and horticultural sectors are such that strategic planning is feasible. A comparable facility does not exist, nor can it exist, until the Common Fisheries Policy and other matters affecting future fishing opportunities have been resolved.

Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY

My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the committee, made up partly of the fishing industry and partly of the Ministry, which I understand have been considering the difficulties that the fish farming community encounter, are going to report soon, and whether we shall have some information on this matter?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, we are still awaiting their report.

Lord BRUCE of DONINGTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that the European Economic Commission is already setting up its own separate directorate-general to deal with the whole question of fisheries? Therefore, would it not be convenient for us also to publish a separate White Paper dealing exclusively with the aspects of the fishing industry connected with the European side of it?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, I do not think so, because this is very much a changing situation. Community agreement was reached in certain aspects of conservation matters, as I announced in your Lordships' House recently. Ministers will return to this question at further meetings of the Council in October.

Lord GLENKINGLAS

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that, important though the fishing industry perhaps is, there are also (to use his phrase) very great difficulties continuing in the agricultural industry? This does not prevent the Government from producing a White Paper, but does seem to prevent their doing anything about it. Will he therefore ask his colleagues to include fishing and agriculture in a White Paper, and do something about both?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, one of the difficulties about fishing is that, while we have control of our agricultural produce, we have no control over the fish. They may spawn in one place and migrate hundreds of miles outside Community boundaries. I am afraid the fish have not heard of the Community.

Viscount THURSO

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that this does not apply to fish at fish farms? Why cannot fish farms be included in the White Paper?

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, fish farming is at the moment being considered by the fish farming industry, which will come to the Government with further recommendations, and we shall then have to consider this matter. I may say that, with regard to fish farming, it can affect only a very small proportion of our fish supplies —2,000 tons at the moment, as against 850,000 tons of landed deep-sea fish.

Baroness EMMET of AMBERLEY

My Lords, could the noble Lord not agree that this is because fish farming has not been sufficiently encouraged?

Lord STRABOLGI

No, my Lords. There are also difficulties in producing fish; difficulties of breeding, and so on. It is not the same as producing motor cars. Furthermore, we are limited by the water in this country.

Lord JANNER

My Lords, on the question of fish farming, may I ask my noble friend whether he has been in communication with the fish farmers of Israel, who have established a very highly developed fish farming industry there? Perhaps that would help the Government and those who are in the fish farming industry here to produce very much more than is being produced at present.

Lord STRABOLGI

My Lords, the fish produced in large quantities in Israel is carp, which is not suitable for the British Market.

Lord KENNET

My Lords, has not the main line of my noble friend's answers been a classic case of: first decide what to do and then define the problem?

Lord STRABOLGI

No, my Lords; because we are dealing with indefinables, and not with academic questions.