§ 2.40 p.m.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what percentage of the £15 million offered in aid to Mozambique to compensate for the cost of sanctions against Rhodesia has so far been paid, and whether they propose to pay the balance in the light of the continuing hostilities on the border between Rhodesia and Mozambique.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, British development assistance for Mozambique has been allocated in the light of her economic circumstances. The cost of imposing United Nations sanctions against Rhodesia is only one factor that has been taken into account. A loan agreement for the first £5 million was signed in August. Orders for the supply of British 179 goods agreed under the loan will soon be submitted and no payments have therefore been made. Discussions are proceeding about a number of projects that might be financed from the balance of the £15 million.
§ Lord TREFGARNEMy Lords, I am greatly obliged to the noble Baroness for that reply. Is it not the case that the cessation of guerrilla activities was a fundamental part of the Callaghan-Kissinger agreement reached earlier this year? Is she satisfied, therefore, that the funds which are to be made available can properly still be held available for those people bearing in mind that the guerrilla activities are apparently continuing apace; and can she also comment on the wide reports that have been circulating to the effect that there are now Cuban pilots flying for the Mozambique authorities against the Rhodesians?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I think everybody hopes that peaceful solutions will be found to the very serious problems of Southern Africa and the question of the guerrillas comes into that, too. The question of assistance and aid to countries as poor as Mozambique are quite separate from that. Every assistance that we have given to the Government of Mozambique has been, and has been acknowledged by them to have been, purely for peaceful purposes. We are very careful about that and so are they. I am afraid that I could not, without notice, answer the noble Lord's further point about Cuban pilots. Perhaps he will table a Question on the subject.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that there are many of us on this side who are deeply disturbed by the lack of Government activity in trying to persuade the Africans to stop guerrilla activities while the conference is on in Geneva? It all seems to be very much a one-way traffic.
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord is himself privy to all the conversations that are going on in Geneva or in this country in the Foreign Office. If he is, I am not.
§ Lord CARRINGTONMy Lords, in that case, if my question is wrong, would the noble Baroness now get up and condemn it?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I said in answer to the previous question that I thought the whole House wished for a peaceful solution in Rhodesia and very much hoped that guerrilla activities would no longer have to continue.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEBut, my Lords, do the Government not realise that this is not the end of the matter? Juristically speaking, Rhodesia is a British colony and it will so remain until independence is granted. Do the Government really mean to say that because all or most of us disapprove of Mr. Smith's activities they will allow British territory to be invaded without a protest?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I believe that the noble and learned Lord really knows the answer to that question. We have no military presence in Rhodesia and there is no question of our being able to prevent incursions into Rhodesian territory. I think that that is really rather wide of the mark.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, would the noble Baroness be able to tell the House how we are to monitor the aid which is to be channelled to Mozambique as, as I understand it, we have no diplomatic representatives in that country? Would it not be good to set up somebody to tell us what is going on in Mozambique so as to ensure that the £15 million will not be mis-spent, and perhaps to obtain details of who is aiding Mozambique in its warfare against Rhodesia?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, those are two separate questions. We are confident about the monitoring. Every single item of agreement that is entered into is done by us under an end use certificate. Most of the agreements that have been made so far are for very simple developmental aid. As to the future projects, there are things like livestock, rural roadwork, agricultural implement projects and items of that kind. I do not think that there can be any problem at all about monitoring 181 those, given the undertakings that we have accepted from the Government of Mozambique.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that aid, however innocently intended and however innocently used, does release resources for other purposes?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, that is an argument that is very often used. I can assure the noble Earl and the House that the poverty in Mozambique is of an order which has to be seen to be believed. Any drop of money that goes there is desperately needed—and let us not forget that the Commonwealth and many other countries are sending technical assistance to Mozambique and are helping as the United Nations has asked them to; but even that help will be a drop in the ocean of poverty. The extra that they may possibly spend in what we may regard as an unfortunate way really does not arise. May I also say, in answer to the previous question, that of course we have a British Ambassador in Mozambique.
§ Lord COLERAINEMy Lords, is it not the case that the five "front line" Presidents have publicly declared their total commitment to war in Southern Africa? While agreeing with the noble Baroness that we have no power to influence events directly, would it not be a good plan for Her Majesty's Government to draw the attention of the United Nations to this evident threat to the peace of the world?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I believe that the world is agreed that Mr. Smith's attitude over the last ten years has been an evident threat to the peace of Southern Africa. This has been discussed many times at the United Nations and elsewhere. Of course Her Majesty's Government have noted the statements by the five African countries concerned. It may be the intransigence of Mr. Smith, which seems to have been diminishing lately, has made them rather pessimistic about the future; but in any case they are independent countries and are entitled to say what they say.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARY-LEBONEBut, my Lords, does not the 182 noble Baroness find it difficult to understand, as I do, how, even assuming the truth of what she says about Mr. Smith, one can possibly reconcile total commitment to war with the elementary obligations of the Charter of the United Nations?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, the whole question of the fight for the independence of nations is riddled with contradictions and confusion which the noble and learned Lord, as a historian, will understand. One cannot specify in any particular issue of this kind. Of course it is mixed up. Of course the Africans are fighting for their independence and sometimes they use methods that we ourselves should not wish to condone. Further than that I cannot go.
§ Lord SLATERMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that so far as Rhodesia is concerned the previous Government are not without blame, because the dissatisfaction and the disunity came into being during a period when a Tory Government was in power, when Mr. Smith came over here and was not able to finalise the offers that were made to him by that previous Government? Is it not true to say that Her Majesty's Government, since taking over the responsibility of what was left to them as a form of inheritance, have done everything possible to bring peace to that part of the world?
§ Baroness LLEWELYN-DAVIES of HASTOEMy Lords, I believe that Her Majesty's Government have done everything possible in the most appallingly difficult circumstances.
§ Lord BROCKWAYMy Lords, is the noble Baroness aware that if some of us have been silent during this exchange it has not been because we fail to support the Government fully, but because we feel that she has so admirably answered the questions from the other side?