§ 3.21 p.m.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the total of USSR personnel serving in the United Kingdom in diplomatic, trade and other posts; what is their estimate of the percentage of that total who have been trained by the USSR in espionage; and what is the total serving here in respect of the remaining Eastern European countries.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, the number of USSR personnel serving in the United Kingdom in a diplomatic capacity is 94, with the Soviet trade delegation, 53;representing Soviet commercial organisations and the media, 106; commercial inspectors number 60; 1416 and there are 16 Soviet employees of international organisations. The total serving here in respect of the remaining six Eastern European countries is 476. It would not be in the national interest to disclose the Government's knowledge of foreign intelligence services.
§ Lord ORR-EWINGMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord the Minister for that reply, it is perhaps of some comfort to the House to learn that the present Government are maintaining the ceiling on USSR personnel set by my right honourable friend Lord Home of the Hirsel in 1971. But are not these numbers of themselves really rather alarming? Can the noble Lord tell us how they compare with United Kingdom personnel of similar situation serving in Moscow? How do the figures compare in size with the number of representatives of our democratic ally, the United States of America, serving in Great Britain?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I confirm at once that the ceilings negotiated by the noble Lord, Lord Home of the Hirsel, when he was Foreign Secretary, are being adhered to by this Government. They are, therefore, no more alarming in number today than they were then, when he negotiated them. On the second question of how many United States personnel represent their country in London, I have figures here which I should like to make available to the noble Lord, and in the appropriate form to the House. It is very difficult to compare the two figures, and I will not detain the House by attempting to do so. I should like to make the figures available to the House, and will circulate them in the Official Report.
My Lords, may I just say that the economic systems being so different in these two countries, a great many Soviet personnel in this country are representatives of State trade organisations, as I tried to show in the breakdown of the figures. Clearly, this is not so to any great extent in regard to a country like the United States of America. Therefore, in comparing like with like, I would prefer the House and the noble Lord, who is a former Service Minister himself, to have the two complete sets of figures before them.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, can the noble Lord the Minister 1417 say how the numbers of British representation in Russia, official, industrial or those representing private enterprise, compare with the total figure of 329 that the noble Lord has just given for Russian representatives here?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, I gave a figure of 94 for Soviet diplomatic representation in this country. The British diplomatic representation in Moscow is 82. Then we come to the realm of the not easily comparable; namely, trade delegations on the one hand and the representatives of private enterprise firms on the other. The two figures I have given, 94 and 82—and I hope I am not being misleading as to the number of diplomats so defined in both capitals—will give the House some indication that the position is not all that dissimilar, having regard to population size and so on.
§ The Earl of LAUDERDALEMy Lords, I am much obliged to the noble Lord for that answer. However, he mentioned other figures for the Soviet trade delegation, commercial people, and soon. There are British subjects living and working in Moscow and in other parts of the Soviet Union. Can the noble Lord give us a figure for that total so that we may see the number of British versus Russian representatives?—but perhaps he has not got the figure.
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, given notice, I will do my best. Clearly, this is a different category from the official representation I have been asked about.
Lord CAMPBELL of CROYMy Lords, if there were again to be a large proportion of Soviet officials in this country found to be carrying out intelligence or related activities regardless of their labels and within or going beyond the ceiling, will the Government, like my noble friend Lord Home of the Hirsel, arrange for some of them to leave? Might the Government add, as a reason, not only the Helsinki Agreement, but also that such officials have apparently not been very efficient if their reports have led recently to the surprising impressions in Moscow of some leading persons in this country?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, if they were that efficient, should 1418 we not perhaps encourage a greater number to come here? But seriously, this is a serious question, and I can give a double assurance. We are adhering to what I shall call the Home ceilings. Secondly, every proposal for an addition or a replacement at this level of representation in this country will continue to be scrutinised very carefully indeed.
§ Lord BARNBYMy Lords, is it to be understood from the reply given by the noble Lord the Minister that the Embassy here contains so many representatives of individual trading organisations that, in view of the very strong balance of payments running in Russia's favour, there may be disadvantage to us here in not reorganising the system of representation that we have in Moscow to meet something analagous to their advantage here?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, that is really another question. However, I would remind the House that in the last two years our exports to Russia have doubled.
§ Lord WIGGMy Lords, if my noble friend is carrying out an assessment in terms of espionage as indicated by the precedent, would he hazard a guess as to what value to the Russian intelligence service are those British nationals who are such distinguished members of the Diplomatic Service as Messrs. Philby and Blake? What value they should count against the accredited Russian representatives serving in the Russian Embassy?
§ Lord GORONWY-ROBERTSMy Lords, not without very long notice.
The figures referred to are as follows:
US based staff working for the United States Embassy in London, diplomatic, administrative and technical, 255; for the US Consulate-Generals in Liverpool, Edinburgh and Belfast, respectively, 3, 4 and 2.