§ 3.13 p.m.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital in Euston Road and its maternity home in Hampstead are to be closed; and if so, what consultations with the medical staff of the hospital took place before the deci-sion was reached.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, no decision has been reached on the future of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital or of its maternity home in Hampstead. Because this hospital was founded with certain special objects, no decision on its future and that of the maternity home can be made by the health authorities without the agreement of the Secretary of State for Social Services. At present the Camden/Islington Area Health Authority is undertaking informal consultations which have already included members of the medical staff.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his reply which I find to some extent comforting on this issue, may I ask him to let us know at what stage in the proceedings the medical staff will be officially consulted, especially having in mind the fact that they have no representation on the Community Health Council? As the noble Lord has quite rightly said, the interests and importance of the hospital are spread over the country. Indeed, I believe that 75 per cent. of its patients come from outside the area.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, as I indicated to the noble Lord and to the House, discussions are taking place at the present moment. They started on 12th November 1974 when three consultants at the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital were seen by the area medical officer. There was a further discussion on 19th November 1974 when Mrs. Wendy Love, who is also a consultant at that hospital, was seen, and there was a meeting with the nursing staff of the maternity home, who were seen by the district nursing officer on 12th November. The ancillary staff were seen by the district administrator on 13th November last. These discussions are continuing.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I welcome the noble Lord's answer. May I ask him to use his good offices to see that this famous hospital is kept open? Is he aware that it is the only hospital in Central and Northern London which is staffed solely by women, to which a woman, whether she is of Moslem faith or not, can go, certain in the knowledge that she will be examined for some gynaecological condition by a woman? Is he also aware that the demand is so great that only 23 per cent. of the women who attend the hospital come from the district, while 77 per cent. come from the rest of London?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, we are aware of the points raised by the noble Baroness. I would say, for the information of the House, that a sample of one in ten of patients admitted in 1973 shows that only 27 per cent. of the patients came from within the boundaries of the Camden/Islington Health Authority. As regards the total number of people using the hospital, 98 per cent. are from the South-East, and 84 per cent. come from London postal districts. 11 The overwhelming majority of these come from North of the Thames.
One is aware of the particular and peculiar circumstances and of the services offered by the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital, but while discussions are taking place and no decision has been reached I must point out to your Lordships that the commissioning of the new Royal Free Hospital requires a rationalisation of resources within the area. I think it is true to say that the new Royal Free Hospital is probably one of the best equipped in the whole of Europe. The Area Health Authority has no requirement for the facilities of the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital as a purely local service, except for some 30 gynaecological beds. I would also point out—complicating these issues—that the General Nursing Council has recommended the withdrawal of approval from the Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital for training nursing students. We are aware that there are certain religious difficulties and that women have to be seen by women, and this point is being borne very much in mind.
§ Lord AMULREEMy Lords, can the noble Lord say whether any pressures have been brought on, or whether any representations have been made, to the General Nursing Council to continue their recognition of this hospital as a training centre?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I am not aware of any such move, but perhaps the noble Lord will allow me to draw the attention of the Department to his suggestion.
§ Baroness ELLESMy Lords, will the Minister agree that if this hospital is fulfilling a need which no other hospital fulfils it does not really matter where the women come from? Will he kindly give his consideration to continuing this hospital, which serves the people of this country?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, it does not necessarily follow that this need cannot be met in other ways.
§ Lord ABERDAREMy Lords, can the noble Lord assure us that the Community Health Council has been 12 included in the process of this consultation?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I thought that I had said that. If I did not say it then I can assure the noble Lord and the House that the Community Health Council is, in fact, considering the matter at this present moment.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, should we withdraw the right of a woman, a consumer, to be examined by a woman doctor if she wants to be so examined? What would be the noble Lord's reaction if men suffering from some genitourinary condition were told that they had to be examined by a woman?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I do not think that that is intended at all. In reply to my noble friend's first question, the answer is no, a woman should not be deprived of the right to be examined by a woman doctor. But it is not beyond the bounds of possibility to make these arrangements at other hospitals.
§ Lord SEGALMy Lords, would it not be a great pity if this last surviving institution of women's pioneering in medicine were to be totally destroyed, especially as no adequate alternatives to the services can be suggested?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, no alternative suggestions can be made at this stage because the matter is still under discussion. When the discussions have been completed it may well be possible to offer a real alternative.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend a final question? Is he aware that in the last century Elizabeth Garrett Anderson fought against appalling prejudices? In view of that, may I request him not to allow prejudice once more to win and close this hospital?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I take my noble friend's point but, in all fairness, I am bound to say that one has to live in the present and plan for the future, and not perhaps be guided always by what happened in the past.
§ Baroness ELLESHowever, my Lords, will the Minister kindly assure the House that discussions on closing down the 13 Elizabeth Garrettt Anderson Hospital will not be finalised until suitable alternatives can be made for women in distressed conditions?
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEAnd proven.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I said that that matter would be taken into account. I cannot really go beyond that.
§ Baroness ELLESNot only taken into account, my Lords, but an assurance should be given to this House.
§ Lord HAILSHAM of SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, in view of the wide anxiety expressed in all quarters of the House, will the noble Lord under-take that no decision will be arrived at before the matter has been explored in Parliament?
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, of course I will convey the remarks of the noble and learned Lord to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State. It seems a perfectly reasonable request, if I may be permitted to say so.
§ Lord PLATTMy Lords, may I just put the record straight and ask the noble Lord whether he agrees that the discontinuance of this hospital by the General Nursing Council as a training school for nurses was not in any way on account of the standards of the hospital? It was done because they felt the nurses would not have wide enough experience.
§ Lord WELLS-PESTELLI think that is perfectly correct, my Lords.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, will the House forgive me if I ask one final supplementary? Is my noble friend aware—and this point is of crucial importance to all daughters of noble Lords opposite who want to be doctors—that because of women's domestic responsibilities it is extremely difficult for a woman doctor, when she wants to take three or four years off for childbirth, to find any part-time job in a London hospital during that period? The Elizabeth Garrett Anderson Hospital is the only hospital where these women can be assured of getting a part-time job. This is an invaluable service to women in the medical profession who want to be wives and mothers as well.
§ Lords WELLS-PESTELLMy Lords, I can only repeat that I will draw the attention of my right honourable friend to what has been said to-day, and in particular to the contribution made by my noble friend.