§ 2.48 p.m.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement concerning the place of the consumer interest in the nationalised electricity industry.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY (LORD BALOGH)My Lords, there are independent statutory Consultative Councils, appointed under the Electricity Acts 1947 and 1957 by the appropriate Secretary of State, for the area of each Area Electricity Board. They have the duty to consider any matter relating to electricity supplies in their area and to make representations to the Generating Board, the Electricity Council and the Secretary of State as necessary and appropriate.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, as these Independent Consultative Councils have the responsibility of protecting the interests of users of electricity, and as these Councils had no thoughts about what the Minister himself 1298 has described as a "sense of injustice" on the part of consumers, would the noble Lord agree that either the Councils should be done away with or that we should find a means of making them more effective?
§ LORD BALOGHNo, my Lords.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, may I ask a second supplementary question, quoting what the Minister said in another place on June 20, which was:
My aim will be to restore the differential so that the charge per unit for off-peak electricity will once again be 50 per cent. of the standard charge per unit. That will remove the sense of injustice".May I ask the Minister whether that statement means that the differential will be restored as from the original statement, and that none of this iniquitous 70 per cent. increase will appear on the current accounts?
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I fear that I cannot answer that question, but I shall endeavour to write to my noble friend and explain this point.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, if I may give my noble friend advance notice, is he aware that I put down a Question on the Order Paper to-day for Answer on July 16, asking for a statement about the charges being made for night storage heaters?
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I have no doubt that my noble friend has put down a number of Questions.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that for the last two years the questioner on our Benches has been kicking at her own goal, and it is about time she tried to be loyal to our Party?
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I could not agree more with my noble friend.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware, as I happen to have been responsible for putting this legislation through another place, on the understanding that under a public corporation as against State capitalism, which was rejected at the time, it was expected that the Central Electricity Board and the Area Boards, which I appointed, and successive Area Boards, have neglected the interests of consumers, unless in the case of a 1299 V.I.P. who may get preferential treatment? And if the Consumer Councils are not able to act effectively, then it is about time they were changed.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I do not think that that would be in accordance with the best practice. These Area Consultative Councils must have a certain independence and the Minister cannot dismiss them merely because, on occasion, they come up with, according to some, the wrong answer.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, in order to look after the interets of the consumer one has to ensure that neither the Area Electricity Boards nor any other corporation sell electricity apparatus for domestic space heating, because it is more expensive than other methods of heating and less thermally efficient. Therefore, will the Minister consider issuing a general direction to Area Electricity Boards not to advertise the use of electricity for domestic space heating?
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I shall certainly report to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State what has been said, and we shall certainly be able to consider this demand.
§ BARONESS BURTON OF COVENTRYMy Lords, while I am very glad that I am able to score goals in either goal net, may I ask my noble friend whether he will ask the noble Lord, Lord Blyton, whether he has ever heard of the West London Air Terminal?
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, I know the West London Air Terminal. I am a little nauseated by the attitude of the noble Baroness during the last two years and her attack on the trade unions and our Party. I am just about tired of it.
§ LORD SHINWELLMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that this Question is very important, as indeed all my Questions are? Is my noble friend further aware that it is naturally expected that as a result of the application of the nationalisation theory, which I have advocated for many years and which I still uphold, the consumer's interests must be protected? Is he also aware that if a submission is made to a Minister who may be responsible for energy, the person who makes the submission is referred to the Area Board concerned? Is that 1300 entirely satisfactory? Ought not the Minister to be responsible to some extent for consumer interests?
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I think my noble friend has raised an important question, but it does not arise out of this difference of opinion.
§ LORD DOUGLASS OF CLEVELANDMy Lords, is it not true that arising from price controls and investment control in all industries, particularly the nationalised industries, we are arriving at a stage where the councils in control are completely bewildered as to whether thye have to operate upon an economic basis or upon a political basis? Is not that bound to raise the very problems which are being raised now? Is not the present problem a question of who should pay the inevitable increased cost arising from the increased fuel cost? Is not the simple answer that if the night storage heater users are to get their electricity at the usual cheap rates then those who pay the normal rates will have to pay an even higher rate? It is a matter of a small mathematical adjustment that is being blown up to give some kind of picture of the problem that is arising from all nationalised industries at the present time.
§ LORD BALOGHMy Lords, I agree with my noble friend that it is either a political or an economic question. It seems to me that, as he suggested, the answer is that it was handled from the point of view of the economics.