§ 2.50 p.m.
§ BARONESS SEEARMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
The Question was as follows:
To ask Her Majesty Government what steps are being taken to relieve the extreme discomfort, verging on danger, suffered by commuters on London Transport due to the acute shortage of staff, what jobs are difficult to fill, what percentage of these jobs are at present held by women and what steps are being and will be taken to recruit and train women for them.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, matters concerning London Transport are the responsibility of the Greater London Council. I understand that there are indeed serious shortages of bus drivers and conductors, of guards on the Underground, and of certain other key maintenance grades. So far as the second part of the noble Baroness's Question is concerned, London Transport now have their first woman bus driver; three others are training. There are no women guards or maintenance staff.
§ BARONESS SEEARMy Lords, will the Government accept that this is a very unsatisfactory state ofaffairs; that the position of London Transport is, as I have said inthis Question, verging on the dangerous, and that the number of women being recruited to fill these posts is totally unsatisfactory? Will the Government attempt to take some action to get the matter put right?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, the Government are aware of the situation and are very concerned about it. The Secretaries of State for Employment and the Environment have set up a joint study to investigate the present manpower needs of London's public services, and the likely future trends in the supply of, and the demand for, manpower by these services. But I have toadd that this study is expected to take some little time.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, while observing that we have one woman bus driver, I think my noble friend will agree that one swallow does not make a summer. Will he give me a rational explanation, completely divorced from prejudice, as to why women are not trained for positions on the Underground?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, as I have said, this is a matter for London Transport. As to whetherI can give a rational explanation, I understand that it is a matter that has to be agreed between the trade unions, and the agreement of those working in the industry has to be obtained. I ought to say that there are indications that not very many women are likely to be forthcoming, anyway.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, is my noble friend not aware that if the women are not invited it is quite impossible to judge how many will be fothcoming?
§ LORD HAILSHAM OF SAINT MARYLEBONEMy Lords, can the noble Lord think of any reason why women should not perform any of these functions, except, of course, that theLabour Party is a wholly owned subsidiary of the trade union movement?
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, if the noble Lord will not answer that question, may I ask him whether the Government can 480 make urgent representations to London Transport? This is not a matter that can wait for many months or even years. Those of us who use these services are appalled at the conditions which prevails
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I think that what I have to say may have some relevance to the pointraised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hailsham. In regard to recruitment for these services, pay is an important fact, but other employers in the London area are also short of staff, particularly in jobs where onerous hours and weekend work are necessary. I would refer my noble friends to what my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Employment said on May 6 in another place concerning London Transport.
§ LORD HALEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that every word in the noble Baroness's Question isabsolutely true, to the knowledge of every Member of this House, andthat precisely the same remarks could be made about the suburban railway services into London, which now seem to be run for principles diametrically opposed to those we propounded when we supported nationalised transport? Is he also aware that the ultimate responsibility is upon there two Houses and Her Majesty's Government, however much we may have said that we do not want to interfere with day-to-day matters—and I opposed that when it was said.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I am convinced that this is largely a matter of pay and conditions and hours of work, and it is an extremely difficult matter to resolve.
§ LORD CLITHEROEMy Lords, will the noble Lord agree that passengers would find it even more inconvenient if they had to wear seat belts?
§ LORD LLOYD OF KILGERRANMy Lords, as we understand that the Government are proposing to introduce legislation against sex discrimination, will the Minister agree that the public services should set a good example and employ more women now?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYYes, my Lords,
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, in an earlier reply to a supplementary question, the noble Lord referred to the interests of the trade unions concerned. Can he say what their policy has been in this matter?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I understand that the trade unions have been very forthcoming in thematter of the bus service. I cannot at the moment indicate the position with regard to the Underground service.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, will my noble friend agree that the real crux of the difficulty of staff shortages in transport as a whole is the very poor wage rates which the staff have previously enjoyed, and the very non-social conditions under which they have to work? Will my noble friend agree that this Government are prepared to assist London Transport in trying to overcome these inherent difficulties which exist in transport as a whole? Also, will my noble friend agree that although only one woman bus driver has yet been employed, there are thousands of women employed in London Transport? It is as well to get these matters in correct perspective. So far as trade unions are concerned, provided the women are qualified the jobs are open to them with no restrictions from the trade union point of view.
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYYes, my Lords.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, I understood the Minister to say that the trade unions have been very forthcoming in this matter. Will he say whether the ASLEF was includedin that remark, and how many women members the ASLEF now have?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I replied with regard to bus drivers. If the noble Lord will study the report of what I said, he will see that I restricted it to the bus service.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, if four women bus drivers represent a forthcoming attitude, what would the noble Lord regard as a really progressive one?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I should regard as a really satisfactory position one where we were able to recruit not merely women but men. The House 482 should understand that this problem is not just a matter of attracting women; it is also a matter of attracting men.
§ BARONESS MACLEOD OF BORVEMy Lords, may I ask what is the difference in pay between the two?
§ LORD GARNSWORTHYMy Lords, I have no reason to think that there is any distinction, and if there is any distinction I think it is only a matter of a very short period of time before it will be removed. But at the moment I have no reason to think that there is any distinction at all.