FIRE SERVICES (NORTHERN IRELAND) ORDER 1972 (Hansard, 21 February 1973)

HL Deb 21 February 1973 vol 339 cc213-23 213

§ 7.10 p.m.

§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND (LORD WINDLESHAM) rose to move, That the Draft Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1972, laid before the House on December 19, be approved. The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Order follows closely the provisions of a Fire Services Bill which had a Second Reading in the Northern Ireland House of Commons at Stormont 214 shortly before prorogation. The purpose of the Order is straightforward: it is to provide for the establishment of a single fire authority to be responsible for the fire cover for the whole of Northern Ireland. The present position is that fire cover is the responsibility of two fire authorities; namely, the Northern Ireland Fire Authority and the Council of the County Borough of Belfast. The former caters for the whole area of Northern Ireland other than Belfast, while the latter has responsibility within the area of the County Borough of Belfast. The Northern Ireland Fire Authority was established in 1950, when that Authority and the Council of the County Borough of Belfast became the two fire authorities for Northern Ireland. These authorities operate under the Fire Services Act (Northern Ireland) 1969, which consolidated the Fire Services Acts (Northern Ireland) 1947 to 1965.

§ The establishment of a single fire authority for the whole province in the future will have the effect of creating a brigade of roughly 1,200 men drawn from the existing two fire brigades. This manpower strength corresponds to the optimum brigade size of between 1,100 and 1,300, which was proposed by the Holroyd Committee in its Report on the fire service in Great Britain. The Order also envisages changes in the financing of the fire services, by providing for the new authority's funds to come from the Exchequer and the Consolidated Fund of Northern Ireland. Under existing arrangements, the Northern Ireland Fire Authority's funds are derived partly from a Government grant, and partly from a levy on local authorities. The Council of the County Borough of Belfast receives no direct financial assistance from Government towards the cost of fire services. As a result of this reorganisation, the fire service of Northern Ireland will become a regional service and a regional rate will be levied for the purpose of financing all regional services in Northern Ireland.

§ Before concluding, I think it would be the wish of noble Lords in all parts of the House that I should pay tribute, on behalf of the Government, to the conspicuous bravery and dedication to duty which has been shown by members of the fire service in Northern Ireland since the present emergency began. All too often in Ulster it is the bomber, the sniper, the 215 rioter, the arsonist, who occupy the fore-front of our attention. Yet it is my hope—indeed it is my belief—that when their destructive activities have ceased, and a more stable society has returned, what will be remembered most of this ordeal is the way in which so many ordinary people saw their duty as citizens and continued to do it. One of the most important of these duties in any society is the provision of a fire service. Risks are, of course, inseparable from any fire service. The man who, even in normal circumstances, puts his life at risk to protect others deserves our admiration. But in Northern Ireland the familiar hazards of fire-fighting are compounded. The fireman has no way of knowing what hidden risks a fire may conceal, or how confused and dangerous may be the situation in which he must do his work.

§ In this context, I am afraid it is inevitable that injuries are all too common place and, as noble Lords may have read, two weeks ago in Belfast, a young fireman was shot and killed while fighting a fire. It is a terrible reflection that servants of the whole community should have to run these special risks. But of this the firemen in Northern Ireland, like the police, the ambulancemen and others in various forms of public service can be proud: they prove beyond any doubt that the people of Northern Ireland, as a whole, are determined to maintain the essential fabric of their society, despite the many assaults upon it by those who resort to violence without enough thought of the consequences. The motto of the City of Belfast, being translated, is "For so much, what do we give in return?" Men such as these give an answer. It is one which deserves to be heard in this House, and beyond. My Lords, I beg to move.

§ Moved, That the Draft Fire Services (Northern Ireland) Order 1972, laid before the House on December 19, be approved.—(Lord Windlesham.)

§ 7.17 p.m.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
My Lords, the House will be very appreciative of the manner in which the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, has introduced this Order. If I may say so, he has introduced it with his usual care and clarity and we are very grateful to him for the trouble which he invariably takes when introducing Orders 216 dealing with Northern Ireland. The only claim which I can make to speak with any authority in regard to this Order is that for years I have served in the field of local government and at various times have played a part on fire brigade committees. I well recall the first fire brigade committee on which I served. We had a chief officer and one fireman and that was our total full-time strength. I also have the considerable privilege of being vice-president of the London Fire Liaison Panel. It is because of that interest and experience that I stand here speaking for this side of the House in connection with this Order.
As the noble Lord said, unlike many Orders on Northern Ireland, this Order follows consideration of a Bill in the Stormont House of Commons, the provisions of which were very similar to those contained in this Order. The Bill was introduced there on March 1 last year and it received its Second Reading on March 16. Altogether, it was debated for slightly under an hour-and-a-half, and I understand that there was not a quorum throughout the whole debate, which means that there was an attendance of less than 10 members, including the Speaker, out of a total membership of 52. So I suppose it is reasonable to say that when the Bill was before the Stormont House of Commons it was not regarded by that House as a highly contentious matter. Nor did the length of time this Order took in our own House of Commons at Westminster suggest that it was very controversial, since it was disposed of in a little under 40 minutes. Nevertheless, despite its apparently non-controversial nature, one feels that it is infinitely preferable that Northern Ireland should have a new legislative assembly that commands the proper participation of its members in consideration of matters such as are dealt with by this and other Orders. To that end, I take this opportunity to emphasise the urgency of introducing the promised White Paper and the holding of provincial elections. The indications, judging from the public Press, are that we shall get the White Paper about the middle of next month. I think there will be general agreement that that will be none too soon, and the event will be awaited with interest.
My Lords, every time we debate a Northern Ireland Order one is reminded 217 of the political vacuum in Northern Ireland itself: a vacuum that must be filled with all speed possible, since there is nothing more non-productive than a vacuum. It is a situation in which the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham, and his right honourable friend have our very deep sympathy and understanding; and to the extent that they can proceed with speed commensurate with the urgency of the consideration they will have our full support in the pursuit of appropriate policies. We welcome this Order in the same way as we have welcomed each of the measures based on the recommendations of the Macrory Report, and we see it as an essential part of the reorganisation of local government in Northern Ireland, in which most functions are to be run on a province-wide basis.
My Lords, I have no wish to repeat all that was said in the other place when this Order was discussed there on February 5, but there are some matters I wish to comment on, and one or two, perhaps, to pursue. On this side of the House we are pleased to note and approve that the new force is to be known as the Fire Authority for Northern Ireland. The original suggestion, that it should be known as the Ulster Fire Authority, could have given offence to one section of the community, and the Advisory Commission are to be congratulated on having made the change. We have a very real reservation in regard to the constitution of the new Authority. It is a point which was raised in the other place by my honourable friend Mr. Stanley Orme, and by Captain Orr. We see no reason why the City of Belfast should have as many representatives on it as the other district councils together, since their population is twice that of the City of Belfast itself. Neither are we particularly enamoured of the fact that the Minister is entitled to appoint more representatives than will be appointed by the totality of local government.
Then, my Lords, I have to say that we are very disappointed that members of the Fire Brigade Union are not to have specific representation on the Authority. If this was a Bill at Committee stage, I could move an Amendment to deal with the point; but an Order cannot be amended, so all I can do is to seek an assurance that the Minister (or, under direct rule as it obtains at the moment, the Secretary of State) will use his powers 218 to appoint at least one member of the Fire Brigades Union to the new Authority. This matter was raised in the other place, and the Minister, Mr. Peter Mills, referred to the conversations he had had with the union. He said there was no doubt of their full co-operation, and how impressed he was as a result of the talk he had with them. He indicated—and here I refer to column 177 of the OFFICIAL REPORT for February 6—that he would follow up this point about representation. At least, he said that what had been stated by my honourable friend on that occasion would be noted, and I must say that I took it that that referred to this matter. I would ask the Minister to say, if he can, whether something is contemplated to meet that request.
My Lords, the Order deals with the structure and financing of the new fire fighting force, but mention should also be made of the more substantive features of the force—and, indeed, they have been touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Windlesham—namely, staffing and equipment. One understands—and I thank the noble Lord for the figures that he gave—that the two present fire authorities employ a total of about 1,170, and that the new Authority will employ an estimated 1,242. That is an increase of only 6 per cent., accounted for almost entirely, as I understand it, by an increase in part-time firemen. The Fire Brigades Union believe that an urgent and substantial increase in establishment is required, and that this should be concentrated on increasing whole-time fire cover. I believe that they have a good case. In the year before the troubles began the two existing forces received a total of 6,800 calls. In the first year of the disturbances, the number had risen to 8,700. Perhaps the Minister will be able to tell us how many calls they dealt with during the whole of last year. I do not think he mentioned this, but if he did I missed it. I should be grateful if he could perhaps give us the figure. I ought to have given him an indication that I intended to ask that question, and I am sorry that I did not. I realise that that is a point I overlooked when I was talking with him and indicating the matters on which it would be useful to have some information. I shall quite understand it if he is not able to deal with that matter this evening. Then, if the noble Lord is 219 able to give this figure, he may be able to compare the increased load with the change in manpower over the same period.
Men need the right equipment, and there is some concern about the urgency with which one can expect the standardisation and improvement of equipment for the new force. In Stormont, Members were told about a working party on equipment which was appointed in June, 1971. Certainly by March of 1972 it had not reported. Possibly the Minister can tell us whether they have done so now; and, if they have, what they had to say in regard to this matter. I think it would be of advantage if the Minister could give some reassurance on this point dealing with equipment.
My Lords, I should like to join with the Minister in the very deserved tribute he paid to the members of the fire fighting service in Northern Ireland. He will have commanded unanimous support from everybody in the House; and, if I may, I should like to add to what he said by expressing the deep appreciation of Members on this side of the House to all the firemen in Northern Ireland who have given such outstanding service under most exceptional circumstances. The Minister spoke fluently upon this point, and I shall not labour it beyond what I have said. We hope that this Order, and the measures that flow from it, will assist those members of that fire-fighting service in the brave and essential work of which the Minister spoke so well.

§ LORD WADE
My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for explaining the nature of this Order. I was not intending to raise questions to-night, but if he is able to give some indication of the cost to the British Exchequer of the fire services in Northern Ireland I think that would be of interest. But I shall not press it if he has not the information to hand. My main reason for rising is to add my tribute to the members of the fire services in Northern Ireland. They are working in extraordinarily difficult circumstances, and what they are doing is appreciated.

§ 7.29 p.m.

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
My Lords, I should like to thank both noble Lords who have spoken in this debate for what 220 they have said, and particularly for the tributes they have paid, adding to what I said from this Box on behalf of the Government concerning the work being done by firemen in the present very difficult circumstances in Northern Ireland. I was particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, for taking so much trouble in preparing his speech, and also for letting me know the main headings that he intended to cover. What I did not know before he spoke just now is that he had served over a considerable period on various local authority fire committees, including one controlling what surely must have been about the smallest fire-fighting force in the country at the time, if it only had a strength of two, one whole-time and one part-time man.

§ LORD GARNSWORTHY
A fire chief and one whole-time member.

§ LORD WINDLESHAM
Still very small. The noble Lord asked about the composition of the new Fire Authority for Northern Ireland which is to be composed of nine members nominated by the Minister and eight elected representatives. The eight elected representatives include four from Belfast and four from the remainder of Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, wondered why there should be that balance bearing in mind that the population of Belfast is of the order of 600,000 out of a total population of 1,500,000—the proportions are not quite what he indicated. Still it remains true that Belfast is smaller in terms of population.
What we were anxious to achieve in this merger was a marriage between equals. These are two well-established fire authorities, Balfast and the Northern Ireland Fire Service, and they have worked together closely. We wanted to avoid any appearance of a take-over by one of the other. It thus seemed to us that parity of representation was the best manner in which to proceed. This means, for example, that in nominating nine members the Secretary of State will be able to think particularly about the country area representation without disturbing the principle of trying to treat the merger as a marriage of equals. The Ministry will, as I explained in my opening remarks, be providing all the funds for the new Authority and it is therefore 221 right that it should have the power to appoint a majority of the members. It is also important that the Ministry should have sufficient scope to ensure that the Authority is made up of a good cross section of the community as a whole. If it happened that the chairman was one of the nominated members—and it will be a matter for the Authority to elect its own chairman—there would then be an equal balance of eight elected and eight nominated members.
The noble Lord also asked about direct representation of the Fire Brigades Union on the new Fire Authority for Northern Ireland. This is a matter, as he rightly said, which was raised in another place and it is something that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State has looked at as my honourable friend the Parliamentary Secretary said that he would. There are a number of comments I might usefully make at this stage. The first is that the Fire Service Act (NI) 1969, bars from membership of the Fire Authority any employee of the Authority. The Order adapts the Act to cover the new Authority and therefore no Fire Brigades Union member who was himself directly employed by the Authority could under the present law serve as a member of the Authority. Second, and perhaps going rather wider, it is important the Authority should represent the community as a whole. It is to serve the community that the Fire Service exists. Questions of pay, conditions of service and so on are all, as the noble Lord will know from his experience in this field, settled on a United Kingdom basis by the National Joint Council for local authorities' fire brigades.
Third, I believe it is true to say that there is no union representation as such on any local authority fire services at present in Britain. I do want to make clear, however, that the closest possible co-operation is maintained with the Fire Brigades Union. I have met representatives of the union myself on two occasions and I expect to be seeing them again before long. My honourable friend, the Parliamentary Secretary, has also had an opportunity to meet Union representatives recently. I understand that the Working Party composed of the two chief officers and the two senior administrative officers has arranged to meet representatives 222 of the Fire Brigades Union on February 27 and is planning to have a full discussion on various matters in relation to the merger, and any problem of concern to the union representatives. The Working Party intends to invite the union's help in the solution of any problems and we are confident that this help will be forthcoming.
The noble Lord, Lord Garnsworthy, next asked about the number of calls in 1972 and the staffing of the two Brigades. The statistics I have are that in Belfast in 1972 there were 4,601 calls, including 482 false alarms. In the area covered by the Northern Ireland Fire Authority, there were 7,348 calls including 1,426 false alarms. The manpower position is that in Belfast the Brigade is composed entirely of full-time firemen. In 1972 the total strength was 310. In the area covered by the Northern Ireland Authority, the Londonderry Brigade (which I have had the pleasure of visiting and presenting awards to at the Northern Command Headquarters) is full time. In the Authority's area as a whole there were 109 full-time and 730 part-time employees. The noble Lord's final question concerned a Working Party which was set up to consider the question of equipment. I believe the position here is that the Working Party keeps the situation under constant review and reports to the Ministry if and when the need arises. Action has been taken on recommendations made so far.
To the noble Lord, Lord Wade, I would only say in reply to his question about cost of the fire services in Northern Ireland that, as I explained in my opening remarks, the cost of the Belfast Fire Brigade is carried at present by the ratepayers of Belfast, whereas the costs of the Northern Ireland Fire Authority are met by Northern Ireland funds. In the future the new Authority will be financed by means of a regional rate levied in Northern Ireland. Thus the fire services are financed from within the Northern Ireland economy. The wider relationship between the Northern Ireland economy and Whitehall in the overall financial context was set out in a paragraph of the recent Paper for Discussion which I do not think I need refer to again. 223 I hope this reply covers the various points that have been made.

§ On Question, Motion agreed to.