HL Deb 20 December 1973 vol 348 cc569-78

4.35 p.m.

THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE)

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I should like to repeat a Statement which is being made in another place by my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster

of imprisonment, under what I am sorry to describe as an inconsistent sentencing policy in different parts of the country. And do not confuse your mind by thinking that at the same time you are going hard on these offences, when the total effect of what you are doing is to give more people an option to put lying defences before a jury in the hope that their counsel may deceive them.

4.27 p.m.

On Question: Whether the said Amendment (No. 41) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 19; Not-Content, 43.

CONTENTS
Balogh, L. Hacking, L. Sainsbury, L.
Birk, B. [Teller.] Janner, L. Sempill, Ly.
Collison, L. Lucas of Chilworth, L. Shepherd, L.
de Cliflford, L. Macleod of Borve, B. Strathcarron, L.
Diamond, L. Monson, L. Wells-Pestell, L.
Gardiner, L. Phillips, B. [Teller.] Wynne-Jones, L.
Greenway, L.
NOT-CONTENTS
Aberdare, L. Gridley, L. Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Alexander of Tunis, E. Grimston of Westbury, L. Reigate, L.
Amory, V. Hailes, L. Ruthven of Freeland, Ly.
Auckland, L. Hailsham of Saint Marylebone, L. (L. Chancellor.) St. Aldwyn, E. [Teller.]
Colville of Culross, V. St. Helens, L.
Conesford, L. Harvey of Prestbury, L. Sandford, L.
Denham, L. [Teller.] Hood, V. Strathclyde, L.
Drumalbyn, L. Kinnoull, E. Strathcona and Mount Royal, L.
Elles, B, Lauderdale, E.
Ferrers, E. Lloyd of Kilgerran, L. Strathspey, L.
Gainford, L. Lyell, L. Stuart of Findhorn, V.
Gladwyn, L. Mansfield, E. Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, B.
Gowrie, E. Massereene and Ferrard, V. Vivian, L.
Grantchester, L. Monck, V. Windlesham, L. (L. Privy Seal.)
Granville of Eye, L, Mountevans, L. Young, B.

Resolved in the negative, and Amendment disagreed to accordingly.

about recent meetings of the Council of European Communities. The Statement is as follows:

"There have been two meetings of Finance Ministers and one each of Foreign, Agriculture and Social Affairs Ministers.

"External trade agreements have been concluded with India and Brazil There has been further consideration of agreements with Mediterranean countries and with those former members of EFTA that have not acceded to the Communities, and of Community adherence to the International Sugar Agreement; work on the simplification of Customs procedures is to be pursued; the improvement of the CAP was discussed, as was a programme for consumer protection; the Community budget for 1974 was finalised at a level slightly lower than in the current year but within the total figure the Social Fund has been increased by about £19 million (45 million units of account), as already agreed.

"This week's meeting of Foreign Ministers was dominated by the problems of Energy and the Regional Development Fund. No agreement was reached but the Council agreed to resume the discussion not later than January 7. My right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary gave a good deal of information on these matters to the House at question time yesterday.

"Finance Ministers agreed a series of measures defining the content of a second stage of Economic and Monetary Union to apply from 1974 on. A resolution on the move to a second stage was also broadly agreed but since it included references to the setting up of the Regional Development Fund and the work to be undertaken on energy matters, it was deferred until those issues were settled.

"The Council has agreed on a programme of action in the field of industrial and technological policy, in accordance with the decision taken at the Paris Summit. The Commission have been charged with submitting draft Directives.

"Social Affairs Ministers agreed on a programme of action to be embodied in a Council Resolution. The programme represents a major stage in the development of the Community Social policy envisaged at the Paris Summit."

My Lords, that is the end of the Statement.

4.39 p.m.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, the House will be grateful for this Statement In many ways it is rather like a Christmas tree in the pauper's house: dressed up but very little within it. We are very pleased to see that agreement has been reached with India and Brazil, and there is no reason to believe that those countries are not satisfied. It is also good to see that some new steps are being taken in the social affairs area of the Community and also in the industrial and technological policy. But the main concern must surely be, first of all, the failure to reach an agreement on the International Sugar Agreement, because this is having a serious effect in the sugar producing countries. I hope the noble Baroness will be able to give an indication of when she expects a decision to be taken here.

But, perhaps the main and most disturbing part of the Statement must be the reports that have been coming out, during the last two days, on the Council meeting in regard to the Regional Development Fund. Noble Lords on this side of the House always felt a sense of dissatisfaction with the terms under which this country entered the Community, but it was the Government who set great store, and persuaded both Houses, that the Regional Development project would provide great opportunities for this country. We were led to believe that there would be massive European money made available for regional development in this country.

Not only was this important in terms of our own development, but it was held to compensate for the very considerable sums of money which we ourselves now pay in to the Community, mainly through V.A.T. and to the French farmers. Therefore, we must press upon the Government that they must remain determined to see that there is a very substantial sum of money made available under the Regional Development Fund. If the Government fail to achieve this, it will have a disastrous effect, so far as they are concerned, and those who have supported entry into the Community, because it will look quite clear, in those circumstances, that we shall continue to be a net provider for the Community, withdrawing very little out of it. This is particularly emphasised when one sees the balance of trade between this country and the Community.

My Lords, I see that the next meeting on this matter will be January 7. I hope that the Government will give us a report on the first day we return after the Recess. We hope that it will be a report that will be acceptable to Parliament. If it is not, then quite clearly we shall require a very urgent debate in order to discuss this matter.

4.43 p.m.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, we must certainly be thankful for small mercies, such as the small increase in the Social Fund, and the other matters to which the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd referred. But would not the Government agree, would they not think that the situation now reached, in which, as we all know, we are blocking much-needed progress towards a common energy policy—to say nothing of a common monetary policy, which is extremely important from our point of view, because the Germans will not agree to give us what we want, or all that we want, in regard to the Regional Fund—is in itself deplorable? Would they not agree that it would have been much better if this Summit had not declared, as they did in their communiqué, that the Regional Fund would in fact be set up by January 1 next, only to find that the Foreign Ministers would not allow this to be done? Would it not have been much better for any impasse in this subject to have been referred to the Summit, rather than the Summit, in effect and ineffectively, referring it to the Foreign Ministers?

Finally, my Lords, would not the Government further agree that it is now essential for some compromise—and I repeat, some compromise—on the total amount of the Regional Fund to be reached at the next meeting of the Council on January 7? I think the noble Baroness, by error, said February 7, but I believe it is January 7. Even if we cannot get all we want, we must not, by undue insistence on what we think, perhaps rightly to be in our own national interest, run a considerable risk of breaking up the entire Community. That would not be in our national interests either.

VISCOUNT MONCK

My Lords, perhaps my noble friend would clarify the question of the date. I know I am getting old and senile, but I heard her say February 7. The noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, said January 7. which is the date I thought it was. Did she mean February or January?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I must first of all thank the noble Lords who have spoken. If I did, by a slip of the tongue, say February 7, I should like immediately to correct it, with apologies to your Lordships, because of course it has always been January 7—the earliest possible moment after Christmas and the New Year. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that I understand that both India and Brazil are happy with the agreements that have been reached. As regards the International Sugar Agreement, an attempt was made to agree whether the Community should join the I.S.A. Unfortunately, unanimous agreement could not be reached. This does not affect, of course, the question of 1.4 million tons of sugar from the Commonwealth, which I know that the noble Lord and I have very much at heart.

On the question of the Regional Development Fund, which was also referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, it is perfectly true that we have at the moment temporary difficulties, not only over the size of the Regional Development Fund, but over the energy policy and the second stage of economic and monetary union. But I would suggest to the House that when long-term policies of this importance are under consideration, it is hardly surprising; and there is the convention in the European Community that one can stop the clock. Therefore, the meeting which takes place on January 7 is really a continuation of the meeting which has just ended and will be continued as such. It is important in many ways to have further time for reflection so that in the end we obtain the right decision. I should like to assure the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, that we are guile determined to see that there is a fair policy on the amount which is contributed to the Regional Development Fund, as we have always thought that this was equally important to the Common Agricultural Policy.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would the noble Baroness tell us whether it is the practice to keep a verbatim record of discussions in the Council of Ministers?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR, OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I understand that there is a tape, but as some of these meetings are considered confidential this is not released.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would the noble Baroness go a little further and perhaps be willing to answer this question? Since we are confronted by what has been described by high priests of the Community as a crisis in its affairs, and our information comes from ex-parte statements, whether British, German, or whatever they may be—none of them complete, and some of them very brief, like the one that we have had this afternoon—might there not be a case for requiring publication both of the proceedings and of any votes that took place?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, no votes took place because it was desired to try to reach a decision on these matters by consensus. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said yesterday—and I quote—he thought it was desirable that matters of economic and monetary union and matters of regional policy and energy should all be settled at the same meeting; at any rate that considerable progress should be made; and this is the endeavour.

THE EARL OF LAUDERDALE

My Lords, would not the noble Baroness agree, however, that there is something to be said for trying to get a proper publication of what takes place in this supreme organ of the Community to which we all belong, whose decisions have a binding effect on our citizens?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I quite agree that it would be quite fascinating to get a record of all the discussions which go on within the Council of Ministers. But what emerges, of course, are the decisions, and these really are the matters which will be binding on us, not the general discussion.

4.50 p.m.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, does the noble Baroness not appreciate that it may be that she knows what went on in the Council of Ministers, but we, who are Members of Parliament of both Houses, have only the newspapers to go by and the odd reports that one may have on radio or television on what the Ministers say in the corridors at Brussels. Our reading of the situation is that there was, and still is, a major crisis at Brussels within the Community. Whether you support the entry into the Community or whether you think we should withdraw, clearly it would be a matter of major consequence to this country and to Europe if the crisis were to develop in such a way that, as the noble Lord, Lord Gladwyn, said, the Community was to break up. But would the noble Baroness not agree that if we had the Select Committee procedure in regard to the scrutiny that we discussed the other day this would be a procedure and a forum by which Parliament—in confidence, perhaps—would have a greater knowledge and understanding of what the crisis was about and what was the position taken by the British representatives.

LORD JANNER

My Lords, before the noble Baroness replies, may I support the plea that has been made to her? It is perfectly obvious that Parliament should be in a position to know what attitude is taken by our Government, and possibly by other Governments, no matter what the decision may ultimately be. In these circumstances, unless we are aware, by some kind of record, of what is taking place, it is impossible for Parliamentarians, either in this House or in another place, to deal with the matter in the manner in which they might deal with it if they knew what arguments were being put forward by the various countries. Possibly the noble Baroness will consider that there should be some record, and that that record should be available to us.

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I can understand the concern expressed by noble Lords, but I should like to put it to them that while it may have appeared as a crisis, as one of our Commissioners responsible for regional development policy, Mr. Thomson, said (I am not quoting his precise words), in his opinion this was an interim procedure within the Community. It is not unknown for the Community to have some very animated debates on all kinds of subjects. I think the general consensus at the end of his meeting—which was difficult, there is no doubt about it, because we have always thought that the Regional Development Fund was of great importance—was that there should be a temporary cessation during Christmas and the New Year and that there should be a resumption on January 7. In order to give, not the confidential proceedings but a general description of what was really at issue on the Regional Development Fund, I will say that the United Kingdom proposed 3,000 million units of account for the Fund, the Commission proposed 2,250 (all this over three years) and the German Delegation proposed 600 for the same period. It is really this difference of opinion in regard to the amount which has been the cause of the difficulty.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, if the noble Baroness thinks that this is only an interim crisis—and I agree with her—is she not aware that there is a strong movement in the European Parliament, and I think it extends to members of all the political groups, that when and if the Council of Ministers come into a real impasse, at that moment there ought to be a public debate between the Ministers and the representatives of the Parliament in order to try to resolve the difficulty? Does not the noble Baroness think that that is quite a genial idea?

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, I am not so sure, to be quite honest. I think it might be better to consider this matter as a meeting which is only half concluded, and the rest will conclude on January 7.

I omitted to reply to the question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Shepherd, with regard to the Select Committee. As I understood it—and I read the report of that debate with the greatest of interest because I was in Nigeria at the time the idea really was to sift various instruments and to examine certain policies before a conclusion was reached. In this particular case I think that the Select Committee—as indeed the House—is well aware of what the United Kingdom's position is, and the position of the Commission. I am not sure, and I would not commit myself on this matter because no doubt the Government are to consider finally, in January, what to propose to the House.

LORD SHEPHERD

My Lords, I do not wish to delay the House further, but I would say to the noble Baroness that she should do her homework a little more thoroughly. She will see that the Select Committee was to go a good deal wider than she has indicated, and will meet the point that I put.

My Lords, the next speech will, I presume, be on the Motion, That the House do now adjourn. While I do not myself approve of speeches being made on the Adjournment. I should like to wish the noble Baroness a very happy Hogmanay, and to other noble Lords who may be of that extraction the same. For the rest of us, I wish noble Lords a very happy Christmas. I wish I could add, "and a very prosperous New Year"—but we will keep up our hopes.

A NOBLE LORD

My Lords, I am the only incumbent left on these Cross Benches, but may I also wish the noble Baroness a very Happy Hogmanay and a very Happy New Year as well!

BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIE

My Lords, may I acknowledge the very gay good wishes. As a Scot, may I say that we also celebrate Christmas. I wish all noble Lords a Happy Christmas and a jolly good Hogmanay.