§ 3.27 p.m.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have yet received a reply to their representations to the Rhodesian régime about the secret trial and continued detention of Mr. Peter Niesewand.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, FOREIGN AND COMMONWEALTH OFFICE (BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELIIELVIE)Yes, my Lords. The Rhodesian authorities said they are taking note of the representations made by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary about Mr. Niesewand, but that the matter is still sub judice.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that Answer, and completely understanding her difficulties in dealing with so harsh and devious a man as Mr. Smith, may we ask the Government to continue to press the matter about the detention order?—because I hope the noble Baroness is aware that under that order Mr. Niesewand is detained in solitary confinement, and has been since February 18. May we also ask the Government to press for the release of the very many Africans 773 who are also detained under this order, such as Mrs. Chinamanu and others?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I am sure the noble Baroness will be aware that Her Majesty's Government have pressed for the release of certain Africans who are detained, and that my right honourable friend pressed for the lifting of the detention order against Mr. Niesewand. If that were done, I understand that it would then be possible to release him to this country.
§ LORD BYERSMy Lords, while supporting everything that the noble Baroness, Lady Llewelyn-Davies of Hastoe, has said, can the noble Baroness, Lady Tweedsmuir of Belhelvie, explain how any matter can be sub judice in a country which has abandoned justice in favour of politics?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as the noble Lord knows well, we do not accept either the illegal régime or the system of justice under the illegal régime. However, he will also appreciate, as I am sure the House will, that we have great difficulty in enforcing our authority within Rhodesia.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, following on that, may I ask the noble Baroness if she knows whether there is any truth in the reports in the Daily Telegraph and elsewhere to-day that there are members of the Rhodesian régime who are pressing Mr. Smith to remove the detention order and to release Mr. Niesewand, and, if so, can Her Majesty's Government put pressure on that point, too?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we have no accurate information that there are individuals within Rhodesia who are pressing this particular point. I understand that the appeal against conviction and sentence is to be heard on the 27th of this month, but it is still within the power of the régime to lift the detention order.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, in order to preserve a fair judgment in this matter is my noble friend aware that Rhodesia is virtually at war, having regard to the infiltration of 774 guerrillas and the murdering of both black and white people by guerrillas, and that in those circumstances it is hardly surprising that Rhodesia adopts measures which we ourselves adopted in two World Wars in order to preserve the integrity of the State? Can the noble Baroness remember whether during the First or Second World Wars there were any secret trials in this country in camera in the interests of the preservation of security?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I could not recall at a moment's notice trials in the First or Second World Wars; but I can say that Her Majesty's Government made absolutely clear that they deplore the fact that the Rhodesian authorities have held the entire proceedings in camera and have allowed no details of the charges to be made known. That is not the practice in this country. Our practice is to make known the charges and to hold as much as possible of the proceedings in open court. Furthermore, verdicts and sentences in these cases are always pronounced publicly.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, can the noble Baroness say whether trials in Northern Ireland are held in secret, or sometimes in secret?
BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR BELHELVIEMy Lords, my noble friend may not have heard that I said that in these cases our practice is to make known the charges and to hold as much as possible of the proceedings in open court, but that in any case the verdicts and sentences in these cases are always pronounced publicly.
LORD JANNERMy Lords, in view of the serious gravity of this particular matter, and in view of its international implications as other countries are adopting similar methods, will Her Majesty's Government seek some help from the Commission on Human Rights and by some other international action, so that this man may receive a just hearing?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, we think that what is important here is speed. The world-wide condemnation of the complete secrecy of this trial and of the charges must surely have had some impact upon the Rhodesian authorities.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, to clear the record and in answer to her noble friend Lord Grimston of Westbury, would the noble Baroness make it absolutely clear that not even the Rhodesian authorities have ever suggested that Mr. Niesewand had anything to do with terrorists, except reporting on some of the incursions over the border?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, as I understand it, Mr. Niesewand was tried in camera on March 19 and 20 for contravening Section 3(a)(ii) of the 1970 Rhodesian Official Secrets Act. That Act makes it an offence for a person, for any purpose prejudicial to the safety or interests of Rhodesia, to obtain, collect, publish or communicate to any other person, information which is calculated to be, or which might be, useful directly or indirectly to an enemy.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, while agreeing with the concern expressed and having paid particular attention to the replies of the noble Baroness, may I ask her whether, since Rhodesia is in a state of war, she could confirm—and I think she omitted to reply to my noble friend Lord Grimston of Westbury—that in similar cases of war, frequently, for security reasons, we detain individuals for considerable periods without trial? Could the noble Baroness further say whether we have ever intervened in the decisions of the courts in cases of sentences under review?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, I did not reply to the question as to what trials had taken place in the First and Second World Wars, for the very good reason that I did not know. But normal practice is to make known the charges and, I repeat again, to hold as much as possible of the proceedings in open court, and for verdicts and sentences in these cases to be always pronounced publicly. What my right honourable friend has protested against is that everything was in camera, including the charges.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while appreciating the replies which the noble Baroness has given, may I ask her whether 776 there is any information on whether Mr. Niesewand will be kept in solitary confinement until the appeal is heard? And, have Her Majesty's Government made a protest against that possibility? May I ask her further (she has indicated that the British Government have made reference to the African prisoners) whether Her Majesty's Government would emphasise very strongly that while we are all deeply concerned about this case, we are equally (and perhaps even more so because of the time) concerned about Africans who have been kept in detention for eight years without any trial?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, in answer to the last part of the noble Lord's question, I indicated earlier that we certainly did make formal protests about certain Africans who have been detained, at the time of their detention. On the first part of the noble Lord's question, we have asked the Rhodesian authorities to consider lifting the detention order on Mr. Niesewand and allowing him to leave the country. I understand that if they are willing for Mr. Niesewand to leave, and if he is ready to do so, it will be possible for the Rhodesian authorities to revoke the detention order and to suspend or to remit the sentence.
§ BARONESS LLEWELYN-DAVIES OF HASTOEMy Lords, may I ask one final question? As the Rhodesian régime this time appears to be aware of world opinion in a way that it never has been before, may we ask Her Majesty's Government to express to them that it is impossible to conclude a settlement with a Government which flouts basic human rights in this way?
§ BARONESS TWEEDSMUIR OF BELHELVIEMy Lords, it is very apparent that it makes it infinitely more difficult to achieve a settlement.