HL Deb 27 June 1972 vol 332 cc795-7
LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how many battalions have been with- drawn from overseas for service in Ulster and how many have been drafted to stations overseas, including Europe, after their period of service.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR DEFENCE (LORD CARRINGTON)

My Lords, since August, 1969, 27 units from B.A.O.R. and one from Malta have carried out emergency tours in Northern Ireland in the infantry role. All these units returned afterwards to their overseas stations. A further 11 units, including battalions from the permanent garrison in Northern Ireland, were posted overseas within two months of completing tours of duty there.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, may I ask whether, if this shuttle service, such as it is, were to be abandoned, it would in any way weaken the so-called deterrent in Europe? Has the noble Lord read the article by Brigadier Thompson in the Daily Telegraph this morning in which he discloses the appalling situation as regards conscription, which provides the only military element of the ground forces in the European zone; that the various NATO countries have reduced substantially the period of conscription service, and also that in Germany alone 25,000 young men have refused to undertake military service and are now regarded as conscientious objectors?

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, we are in the fortunate position of having a volunteer Army, and one which in Northern Ireland has done a magnificent job. It would be very much better from the point of view of the British Army of the Rhine if these units did not have to go to Northern Ireland, and it must be the hope of all of us that the ceasefire at midnight last night will mean that there is to be an end of the Army role in Northern Ireland. I do not think that all the experience which the Army has gained in Northern Ireland has from the military point of view been wasted.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that I am not making any suggestions of the kind to which he has referred? I merely asked him a question, to which he has failed to furnish an answer. I repeat the question. If this shuttle service were abandoned, would it in any way weaken the so-called deterrent in Europe? That is the question I asked him.

LORD CARRINGTON

My Lords, the difficulty was that I did not really understand the noble Lord's question and therefore I was trying to be polite by answering a question which I hoped he might have asked. But if the shuttle service, as he calls is, were abandoned in Northern Ireland, obviously B.A.O.R. would be stronger.

LORD SHINWELL

My Lords, is the noble Lord aware that, while I applaud his agility of mind, nevertheless I am entitled to an answer to my question? Since he declines to answer the question, either because he is unwilling or unable to answer it or for some reason for which he prefers not to answer, may I ask this? Can he state what is the actual cost involved in the Defence Account for this shuttle service since it began?

LORD CARRINGTON

No, my Lords, I cannot answer that question without notice. But I will, once again, try to answer the noble Lord's first question, which does not seem to me to be entirely logical. If the shuttle service were abandoned I should have thought it was perfectly obvious that the strength and training of B.A.O.R. would be higher and not less.