§ 2.53 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will now consider making it compulsory for motor manufacturers to fit all new motor vehicles with an exhaust emission system designed to eliminate the discharge of poisonous substances into the atmosphere.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, my right honourable friend the Minister for Transport Industries published proposals last month that all new petrol-engined vehicles should comply with European standards on vehicle emissions which will substantially reduce carbon-monoxide and hydrocarbon emissions. In May my right honourable friend the Secretary of State made regulations to control smoke emissions from new diesel-engined vehicles. The need for further controls is being carefully reviewed.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, while thanking my noble friend for that Answer, may I ask him whether it is not a fact that motor vehicles which are being manufactured in this country for export to the United States of America must, by American law, have such exhaust emission systems? May I further ask my noble friend whether, as it is apparently not permissible to poison American citizens with exhaust fumes, Her Majesty's Government will in the near future make it law that British citizens should be similarly protected?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, the exhaust emission control that the United States Government find necessary is caused by the incidence of photo-chemical smog in the United States of America. This is called technically a temperature inversion, when heavy cold air lies on hot air. It does not happen in Europe. We are in close consultation with our European partners about this 765 matter, and do not find it necessary to go that far.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, will the noble Lord say from what date these Orders will be operative?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, new petrol-engined vehicles used after January of this year have to be fitted with a crank case breather. That is in force. Secondly, new dieselengined vehicles used after April 1 next will have to comply with the new Orders. Thirdly, proposals were announced by my right honourable friend last month that all petrol-engined vehicles after October 1 next must have a reduction of a further 10 per cent. in hydro-carbon emissions and of 30 per cent. in the emissions of carbon-monoxide. I would emphasise that these are only the beginning. We are continuing discussions. I may tell your Lordships also, in case any further questions are asked on this point, that before the Summer Recess my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will be announcing further regulations regarding lead in petrol.
§ LORD WYNNE-JONESMy Lords, does the noble Lord mean by that last answer that lead will be banned from petrol? Because if it is not banned, then the use of the catalyst in order to make combustion more effective is not possible.
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I must ask the noble Lord to await my right honourable friend's announcement. I do not think he will get total satisfaction, but in this country a ban is not yet considered necessary, and we are now working on this matter in consultation with our European partners. We shall shortly be bound by E.E.C. regulations and we are in a totally different climate from America. We have no climate like Pittsburg or the Los Angeles basin, and what is necessary for health in the United States of America is not necessary in Europe.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I was fascinated by the noble Lord's atmospheric observations and I should like to ask whether he said that all petrol engines would have to conform or whether he meant only new ones? Secondly, if he means new ones, could this matter be taken into consideration when vehicles have to face their M.O.T. 766 test? Thirdly, since the noble Lord has said that certain things are coming before us before the end of the Session, can he inform us when the end of the Session will be?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, as to the last question asked by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, I think I should be a prophet if I were able to answer it, so I will keep off that point. I merely said that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State would be making an announcement about lead in petrol before the other place rose. With regard to the noble Lord's earlier question, I may say that new petrol engines have had to be fitted with a crank case breather since January of this year, and my information is that all petrol-engined vehicles first used after October 1 next year will have to comply with the other regulations.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, perhaps I should respond to the invitation which the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition has given me about the end of the Session. I can only reply in a four letter word—anon.
§ LORD NAPIER AND ETTRICKMy Lords, in the meantime, will my noble friend ask his right honourable friend to consider introducing regulations which would make it compulsory for all exhaust pipes on heavy vehicles to be fixed in the the vertical position instead of the horizontal position?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, that is a point which I am unable to answer at this moment, but I will certainly look into it and will write to my noble friend.
§ LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGHMy Lords, is not the answer to the question the use for the moment of platinum as a catalyst and for the Government to encourage the perfection of the solar charged electric car which is now being developed?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I will also look into that question and will write to the noble Lord.
§ LORD AVEBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that people who live in areas like the Old Kent Road, where there is heavy pollution from motor 767 vehicles, are not interested in what happens in Pittsburg or Los Angeles? Is he further aware that, however good may be the regulations imposed by Her Majesty's Government, their success will depend on our ability to enforce them, and at present the police have not sufficient resources to do this? What do the Government intend to do to see that people who contravene this legislation and the new regulations are brought before the courts?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, if the noble Lord will read the answers I have given, he will find that I have already answered a number of the points he has raised. I hope that he will accept my word that the Government are working on the problem of achieving a still further reduction, and I anticipate that before the end of the decade there will be further enormous reductions in emissions of hydro carbons and carbon monoxides.
§ VISCOUNT MASSEREENE AND FERRARDMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that if he walks in the streets outside the Palace of Westminster during the rush hour this evening (assuming he is not otherwise engaged in your Lordships' House) he will realise the urgency of this Question?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, it is because we realise the urgency of this matter that we are working on it, but we must work in the context of our friends abroad. We sell cars—they represent one of our most important exports—and if we make regulations which no one else can keep we shall not be able to sell our cars abroad.
§ VISCOUNT HANWORTHMy Lords, many of us feel that this is a subject about which we should not rush into panic legislation. Is the noble Lord aware that all these measures will increase the price of vehicles, which means that they must be fully justified?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I am grateful to the noble Viscount for those comments. What he says is indeed true. The Rover Car Company has already withdrawn from selling in the United States. We have an important car market in Europe and the British and European public are not 768 such fools as to insist on regulations which are not necessary.
THE EARL OF ARRANMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that by the end of the decade a great many of us will be dead?
§ LORD MOWBRAY AND STOURTONMy Lords, I can only hope that the noble Earl, Lord Arran, will not be dead.