HL Deb 11 August 1972 vol 334 cc1437-40

11.16 a.m.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in the interests of economy of forces and of finance, they will hand over that part of Londonderry which is West of the River Foyle (Creggan and Bogside) to the Republic of Ireland.

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR NORTHERN IRELAND (LORD WINDLESHAM)

No, my Lords.

LORD CLIFFORD OF CHUDLEIGH

My Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for that Answer, I would ask him: is it not a fact that in unemployment and social security benefits alone this area costs the British taxpayer up to £100,000 a week? Is it not a fact that at least five major units of our Services are generally required there and they are welcome as managers? Would it not be of great propaganda value to make such a transfer, as those affected could then demonstrate to their fellow Fenians remaining in Northern Ireland on which side their bread is buttered?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, as I explained on a previous occasion when the noble Lord raised this same question, Government policy in Northern Ireland does not depend primarily on what Northern Ireland or any part of it may cost in terms of finance or military effort.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, in view of the situation which the country is now facing I wonder whether the noble Lord is wise to be quite so dogmatic in his reply to the noble Lord? Would he not agree that an extraordinary situation arises when, in the first and fourth Questions on the Order Paper we are dealing with people trying to force their way into the United Kingdom, and yet here we are dealing with a situation where people are trying to shoot their way out? Would he not agree that there is some merit—although not put forward so attractively by the noble Lord—in the suggestion that a revision of the boundary would be of some assistance?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I hope that my reply was not dogmatic. It seemed to me, after a good deal of thought, to be the correct Answer to the noble Lord's Question. The arguments against transfer are very considerable. The most important is that action on these lines would not resolve the fundamental problem of Northern Ireland, which is to achieve the reconciliation of differences between conflicting groups. Even if it were practicable, a proposal of this sort would merely transfer part of the problem elsewhere, leaving the root cause of the problem untouched.

LORD GLADWYN

My Lords, might it really not be possible to organise a plebiscite in this benighted suburb in order to know what they really want? If they want to return to the Irish Free State why should they not?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, as your Lordships know there is the possibility of a plebiscite over the whole of Northern Ireland later this year, but the form and the timing have not yet been settled.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, in the discussions to take place about the form of this plebiscite has it been ruled out completely that there should be provision for determining the wishes of individuals in particular areas?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, as I said, the form of the plebiscite has not yet been settled.

LORD BOURNE

My Lords, how many Roman Catholics are involved? Recently when I was in Londonderry I was told that to the West of the River Foyle, 98 per cent. of the population were Roman Catholics. I wonder whether the Minister can tell me how many that represents?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I do not have the figures in my head. A very large proportion on the West side of the River Foyle would be Roman Catholics, but what one must also appreciate is that the area referred to in the Question— that part of Londonderry which is West of the River Foyle (Creggan and Bogside) also contains the principal business area of the City, the Diamond. Many of the traders of that area are Protestants, even though they may live on the other side of the river.

LORD DAVIES OF LEEK

My Lords, would the noble Lord whose answers have been so courteous and kindly explain to a simple Celt the difference between a "plebiscite" and a "referendum";and if ever he thinks of using a plebiscite in Northern Ireland, does he not think that the British people might understand the terms of a referendum on the Common Market?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I do not think I ought to be drawn on that question.

LORD SHACKLETON

My Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he will bear in mind the fact that I regard a plebiscite in Northern Ireland as equally unattractive?