§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will make a Statement on the situation in Ireland.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)My Lords, your Lordships debated fully the situation in Northern Ireland on September 22 and 23. Since then my right honourable friend the Prime Minister had discussions on September 27 and 28 with the Prime Ministers of Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic; all declared their common purpose to end violence, internment and all other emergency measures without delay, and their hope that the process of political reconciliation may go forward to a successful outcome. The Prime Minister has had further talks on October 7 with Mr. Faulkner as part of the continuing process of consultation between the two Governments, and I am arranging for the Statement issued after that meeting to be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT.
§ Following is the Statement referred to:
§ A meeting took place at No. 10 Downing Street to-day between Mr. Edward Heath, the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and Mr. Brian Faulkner, the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.
198§ Mr. Heath was accompanied by the Home Secretary, the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary, the Lord President of the Council and the Secretary of State for Defence. The Chief of the General Staff and the General Officer Commanding, Northern Ireland, were also present.
§ The Ministers discussed all aspects of the current situation in Northern Ireland. They decided that meetings between the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland Governments should be held at regular and frequent intervals at both Ministerial and official level in London or Belfast.
§ The Ministers reviewed the security situation. The United Kingdom Government have decided to raise the strength of the Army in Northern Ireland by three battalions. These extra forces will be at the tactical disposal of the G. O. C. to be used as he thinks fit, but their arrival will enable him, among other things, to strengthen control of the border and to follow up more rapidly the action against terrorists made possible by the increased flow of information which is coming into the Army's hands. The Ministers also discussed measures to give effect to the decision to increase the strength of the Ulster Defence Regiment and to develop the Regiment's organisation to increase the number of units and sub-units and thereby enhance its local character. Mr. Geoffrey Johnson Smith, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence for the Army, has been assigned special responsibility, at Ministerial level, for Ulster Defence Regiment affairs and particularly for recruitment. He will be visiting Northern Ireland next week to confer with the Ulster Defence Regiment Advisory Council and others concerned.
§ On internment, Mr. Faulkner said that he expected shortly to receive the first batch of recommendations of the Advisory Committee set up to consider the cases of interned persons.
§ The Ministers reviewed the economic situation of Northern Ireland, which they recognised to be a matter of urgent importance requiring further study and discussion.
§ Ministers reaffirmed the importance they attached to the consultations which the Home Secretary bad begun at the invitation of the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland with all parties and interests in Northern Ireland. They considered in that context the areas of discussion which the Government of Northern Ireland had decided to bring forward.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for that reply, may I ask whether he is aware of the great disappointment which many of us felt with that Statement following that meeting? It dealt almost entirely with the escalation of military measures. Even since then is it not clear that the situation has deteriorated, particularly over internment? If it is not possible to bring the internees to public trial because of fear 199 of a partiality of juries (which itself indicates absence of public support), would it not be possible for charges against them to be publicly made, with public evidence, before a tribunal of Catholic and Protestant representatives who are opposed to violence?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, perhaps I may preface my reply by saying how much we appreciate seeing the noble Lord back in his place. We missed him during the two-day debate on Northern Ireland, in which we ranged very thoroughly over such issues as internment. The Statement issued on October 7 did indeed refer to the consultations that the Home Secretary is having. On the question of internment, and specifically of bringing people before the criminal courts, this is done wherever possible. Indeed, last weekend two people were convicted of possessing explosives and were sentenced in the courts. The reasons why this is not possible in all cases were described at some length in the course of our last debate by my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor from the Woolsack.
§ LORD BROCKWAYMy Lords, did the Minister see on television last night the remarkable demonstration against violence by 23,000 people in Belfast? Is it now possible to appeal to them with a constructive political plan for civil rights, no religious discrimination, proportional representation, and an urgent economic plan to end the appalling unemployment and housing difficulties?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, I did see the demonstration, the Rally for Peace, to which the noble Lord has referred. I think that the moderate policies that the Government are adopting in this situation are likely to appeal to the moderate people of both communities who have joined together in non-sectarian groups such as the New Ulster Movement.
§ LORD KILBRACKENMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord two questions? First of all, the announced intention being to "end internment without delay". what length of time are we to understand from that phrase? Secondly, in view of the bombing on Friday night of the Catholic, owned public house in Belfast 200 in which one Catholic woman was killed and fourteen people were injured, may I ask the noble Lord whether action is now going to be taken to search the homes of known Protestant extremists, and are members of the Ulster Volunteer Force also going to be interned'?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the policy of internment will be ended when the security situation permits. As to the bombings over this last weekend, I am informed that it is not possible, as yet, to say who is responsible, and that the police and security forces are making urgent inquiries.
§ LORD KILBRACKENMy Lords, does the noble Lord think it likely that a member of the I. R. A. would blow up a Catholic public house?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, as I said (and this was not without consideration) the security forces and the police have not yet established who was responsible, and I think it is a grave mistake to start jumping to conclusions.
VISCOUNT ST. DAVIDSMy Lords. is the noble Lord aware that my noble friend did not ask for any form of trial in which evidence might be hard to come by, and in which it might be difficult to find an unbiased jury? My noble friend asked for evidence in the hands of the police to be stated before a carefully selected committee, and not to be given publicly. Surely that could be done.
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the Advisory Committee under Judge Brown will be reviewing in private the evidence available to the Government of Northern Ireland from the police and the security services. Whenever they believe that it is possible to release an internee they will recommend accordingly to the Prime Minister of Northern Ireland.
§ BARONESS WHITEMy Lords, does the noble Lord suppose that in the present state of affairs people in Northern Ireland will have real confidence, however fine a judge they have, if he himself is based in Northern Ireland and all his friends and relations live there? Would it not be wiser at least to consider the possibility of an independent tribunal drawn from judges from outside Northern Ireland?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, it is an independent tribunal. If the noble Baroness was not present during our two-day debate on Northern Ireland, perhaps I may repeat what I said then. One of the three members of the tribunal, Mr. Dalton, is an Englishman, a Roman Catholic and a former judge of the High Court in Kenya.
§ LORD CAMOYSMy Lords, I should like to ask the noble Lord whether the position of Catholics in Ulster to-day is still that of a second class of citizen, and whether they have exactly the same rights—in local government, in particular—as have the Protestants in the North. If the Catholics are not in the same position as their fellow Irishmen, may I ask when something is going to be done to see that Catholics are treated exactly the same way?
§ LORD WINDLESHAMMy Lords, the reform programme which was initiated in the period of the Administration of noble Lords opposite was intended to ensure that the minority groups should participate fully in the life of the province. The discussions that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary is having now are designed to see what agreed measures can be found to give—in the words he used—an active, permanent and guaranteed role to the minority as well as to the majority in the life and public affairs of the Province.
§ LORD CAMOYSMy Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for that answer. May I say that I should have posed the question in exactly the same way had the religions been the reverse way round? I speak for the minority.