HL Deb 22 November 1971 vol 325 cc809-11

2.40 p.m.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is a fact that, as reported in the Press, the gun and ammunition used to murder Detective-Constable Ian Coward at Reading in June, 1971, were stolen from the Whitgift School, South Croydon; and if so what, if any, regulations govern the storage of firearms and live ammunition in schools.]

THE MINISTER or STATE, HOME OFFICE (LORD WINDLESHAM)

My Lords, the 22 revolver and ammunition used in this tragic incident were stolen from the armoury of a shooting club at Whitgift School where they were held on the authority of a firearms certificate. Apart from any specific condition which may be imposed by a chief officer of police relating to a particular firearm, certificates are held subject to the general condition that the firearm and ammunition are kept in a secure place when not in actual use. This requirement applies whether the firearm is held in a school Or elsewhere, as do the other provisions of the firearms legislation, including those relating to rifle clubs.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Answer. May I ask him, first of all, whether he is able to say in how many schools live ammunition and weapons are held? Secondly, what steps are taken to see that the conditions of safe keeping required by the firearms certificate are in fact observed in schools? Thirdly, would he not agree that if these weapons and ammunition are necessary for the training of cadet force units, instead of dispersing them throughout the schools of the country, which are not normally occupied at night, it would be better if they were stored at police stations or Army barracks, which are at least manned 24 hours a day and from which they could be issued with proper security as required?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot answer the first supplementary question, on the number of schools with clubs, without notice. I should make clear that this weapon was not used for Combined Cadet Force purposes. It was owned and used by members of two rifle clubs at Whitgift School, and therefore questions relating to Combined Cadet Forces do not arise. As regards the firearms used by rifle clubs, these are held on the authority of a firearm certificate. The chief constable concerned has responsibility for seeing that such firearms are kept in a secure place, and he will from time to time inspect the conditions in which they are kept.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords, may I ask two supplementary questions which I think are relevant to those raised by my noble friend Lady Wootton of Abinger? First, when the noble Lord said, "a school or elsewhere ", what is meant by "elsewhere "? I ask that question because recently the murder of three French tourists was committed by a man who alleged that he stole his rifle and ammunition from a fairground at (I think he said) Llandudno? My second question is: Why should schoolboys be taught to use firearms in any case?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the reference to "elsewhere "was included because there are rifle clubs which are in schools and rifle clubs which are not attached to schools at all. The number of offences in which firearms were misappropriated or received last year was of the order of 1,800; only about 61 of these involved firearms taken from rifle clubs or military establishments. So the number of firearms which become available for law-breaking from rifle clubs and military establishments is fairly small.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, the noble Lord has referred to the responsibility of chief constables for inspecting armouries in which weapons and ammunition are kept in schools; can he give the House any idea of the frequency of inspection, which I think is something of which a great many schools are quite unaware?

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the armoury at Whitgift School was last inspected by the police in 1968. The security precautions were increased at that time, and the police believed that the conditions in which the firearms were held were secure. We are asking Her Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary to pay particular attention to this aspect of firearms control in the course of their inspections of police forces.

LORD SLATER

My Lords, can the noble Lord say how many rifle clubs there are in being up and down the whole of Great Britain? Because I think this information would be tangible and useful for Members of your Lordships' House and of another place.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, I am afraid that I cannot provide that information without notice.

BARONESS STOCKS

My Lords the noble Lord has said that inspection covers rifle clubs. Fs the fairground at Llandudno classified as a rifle club? If not, how is it classified and when was the last inspection? My second question has not been answered at all.

LORD WINDLESHAM

My Lords, the question of fairgrounds is really outside the terms of the Question on the Order Paper. As for the general question the noble Baroness put about training in the use of firearms at schools, we must accept that rifle and pistol shooting are well established and popular sports. They are included among the Olympic events, and it is desirable that young people interested in these sports should learn to handle firearms in a responsible way under proper supervision.