§ 2.40 p.m.
§ THE EARL OF CROMARTIEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will instruct or encourage British Railways—
§ (1) when wintry weather disrupts the railway services, to give adequate information to the travelling public, waiting often for hours on cold platforms or in freezing trains;
§ (2) to make some effort to unfreeze the train heating system when they must know that it is frozen-up and when they have ample time to do this while the train is waiting at the larger stations;
§ (3) instead of spending vast sums of money on stations, to allot more money for the proper maintenance of their rolling stock.]
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, the matters the noble Earl has raised are all ones of management and the responsibility of the Railways Board. The Government have no powers to instruct the Board on them. But I understand that there are standing instructions issued by the Board to their staff to advise passengers, by the most effective means, of any exceptional delays to trains. The Board are well aware of discomforts caused to travellers by cold weather. They tell me that the equipment of locomotives and coaches has been modified progressively in recent years to improve train heating; but in extremely severe conditions valves in the heating system may freeze up and when this happens the trouble cannot always be cleared during the time a train is waiting. Any failures of heating equipment are reported immediately and are put right at the first 1000 opportunity. The Board assure me that maintenance of their rolling stock is not allowed to fall below a satisfactory level because of restrictions on expenditure.
§ THE EARL OF CROMARTIEMy Lords, while thanking the Minister for his apologia for British Rail, may I ask whether he would not admit that the Government should take some interest for the sake of the people of this country? A short time ago, entirely owing to lack of maintenance, a diesel engine caught fire. If the fire had occurred to the other diesel, next to the dining car, it could have been very dangerous and have caused disaster.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, this is a matter generally for the management of the Railways Board. The noble Earl has referred to a particular accident. As he knows, there are procedures: there is an inquiry, and the Minister can apply a recommendation of such an inquiry if he considers it necessary.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, would the noble Lord do something to try to persuade British Rail to secure that the information they give is given in an intelligible form? Is the noble Lord aware that last Thursday night, when the trains to Scotland were running very late, efforts were made by loudspeaker to tell intending passengers what was happening, but as those announcements were in neither Scottish nor English it was quite impossible for me to understand them?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I am sorry that the noble and learned Viscount cannot help me further by giving me the nationality of the announcer.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, we appreciate the statement that this is a matter of Railways Board management; but is the noble Lord not aware that these difficulties must arise over these diesel engine boiler systems because of the number of failures that take place? Sometimes the trains become too heated and at other times, particularly in cold weather, there seems to be very little improvement upon the old steam engine days. Surely we can expect improvement upon those days. Would he ask his right honourable friend whether he would not make further representations to the Railways Board to improve the heating systems, particularly of the diesel locomotives?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I will certainly convey what my noble friend has said to the Railways Board. I think that if he has travelled on some of the newer coaches he will know that they are a considerable improvement on the old stock. As my noble friend will be aware, it is taking too long for some of the older stock to be taken out of service.
§ LORD POPPLEWELLMy Lords, it is not necessarily the stock that is at fault. This happens because the boilers on the diesel engines are failing repeatedly and are not providing enough heat to get through to the rolling stock.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, I bow to my noble friend's greater experience in this field. I am merely a Minister of State in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
§ BARONESS ELLIOT OF HARWOODMy Lords, with reference to item (3) in the noble Earl's Question, does the noble Lord not think that much greater sums of money are being spent on stations than on trains for passengers who want to get from one point to another? Is the noble Lord aware that the Railways Board have spent £15 million on Euston Station and then are closing local lines that people are desperately anxious to keep? Would the noble Lord please ask the Board whether they can stop this business of building palaces for people to stay in when what is wanted is as many trains as possible for people to travel in?
§ LORD SHEPHERDThe noble Lady must not exaggerate. With regard to the third item in the noble Earl's Question, I understand that annually some £5 million is spent on railway stations, whereas some £25 million is spent on rolling stock. I do not know whether the general public using Euston will share the view of the noble Lady. The complaints I usually hear are about the standard of the older railway stations in London.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, can my noble friend give an assurance that the proper maintenance of rolling stock will not preclude the spending of money on stations (other than Euston) where this money is desperately needed for the comfort of the travelling public?
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, may I suggest that my noble friend has a con- 1002 versation with the noble Baroness, Lady Elliot of Harwood?
§ LORD MOLSONMy Lords, as the noble Lord has undertaken to make representation to the Railways Board, will he represent to them the desirability of improved maintenance? Is he aware that I have had as many as three locomotives on the train bringing me from Berwick-on-Tweed to London and that I am constantly complaining? I get perfectly civil replies from the management but there seems to be no improvement at all. The last time when there was no heating on the train, the excuse given by the guard was that there had bean no heating since the train left Aberdeen.
§ LORD SHEPHERDMy Lords, clearly it is the Scots who are suffering from this, but I will certainly see that the Board's attention is drawn to it. I must say that the noble Lord was fortunate in that three diesel engines were waiting for him.