§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government: How many hospitals under the National Health Service, in England, Scotland and Wales respectively, have had to close wards since the beginning of 1968 on account of shortage of nurses, and for how long.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND SOCIAL SECURITY (BARONESS SEROTA)My Lords, I regret that the information for which the noble Baroness has asked is not available. Central statistics of the number of beds unused for lack of staff, of all kinds, were collected in England and Wales until 1961, but this practice was discontinued because of the unreliability of the figures, due to difficulty of definition, and we do not propose to reintroduce it.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEMy Lords, while thanking the noble Baroness for that not very informatitve reply to my Question, may I ask her whether she can give us any idea of how many people on waiting lists are held back as a result of unstaffed beds in hospitals?
§ BARONESS SEROTANo, my Lords.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether she would read the letter in The Times to-day from the two surgeons who are attached to the Paddington General Hospital-the hospital which is conducting an inquiry into the death of 950 a child two years ago—in which the surgeons said that two years ago the Paddington General was short by a hundred of what was the normal nursing establishment?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I really feel that that is another Question. Just to correct the noble Baroness, if I may, I would say that an inquiry is not being held now; an inquiry has been held, and the results were published a week or so ago. As I am at present in discussion with the Chairman and Board of Governors on the results of this inquiry, I am sure that the House would not wish me to say any more at the moment.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLBut, my Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not quite clear that the whole country is concerned about the shortage of nurses? How are we to establish the position unless Questions are asked in this place, or in another place, of those who are responsible for providing nurses? Would the noble Baroness agree with me that it is a great mistake to stick our heads in the sand and simply let these unfortunate young women demonstrate, whether on Ilkley Moor or in Trafalgar Square? Surely the right thing to do is to ventilate the position now.
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, while admitting that there is a shortage of nurses in the National Health Service, I am sure the House will be aware that the total number of nursing staff at present employed by the Service is the highest ever. We are all aware of the public concern at the shortage of nurses. I think the House is also aware that we have recently received a claim from the nursing profession for increased salaries and wages. The last part of that salary claim is expected this week, and negotiations on it will start in about the middle of January.
§ BARONESS BROOKE OF YSTRADFELLTEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness, as a result of the reply she has just given to the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, whether it is not true that modern techniques and apparatus require much greater staffing than old techniques and methods of nursing did in the past—which would account for the 951 increased number of nurses? Also, would the noble Baroness agree that we are still in short supply to achieve all that we hope to achieve in the hospitals?
§ BARONESS SEROTAMy Lords, I have no doubt whatever that, in the light of the developments in medical science, the function and the role of nurses has changed considerably in the last twenty years.
§ LORD BLYTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that the shortage of nurses is due entirely to the fact that we are not paying decent wages; and that the sooner these are settled, the better for the country?