HL Deb 09 December 1969 vol 306 cc425-7
LORD KILMANY

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether, in recruiting for Scottish regiments, it is permissible under the law to give preference to men of Scottish origin or connection.]

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, Section 3(1) of the Race Relations Act 1968 makes it unlawful to discriminate on the ground of colour, race, ethnic or national origins in considering applications for employment. The requirements laid down for enlistment to the Scottish Division, which are not restricted to persons of Scottish origin, do not fall within any of these categories.

LORD KILMANY

My Lords, I had hoped to be able to thank the noble Lord for a helpful reply, but I am in doubt as to whether his reply is entirely helpful. Will the noble Lord bear in mind that in the past national identity has been found to be an important factor in regimental morale, and also in recruiting? Therefore, would he be at pains to remove any obstacle that may exist to endeavours by those connected with Scottish regiments to recruit a large proportion of Scottish manpower to those units?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I face a very formidable Scottish array. I am sorry that my reply was not considered helpful it was intended to be. I would say to the noble Lord that I accept that the Scottish Division has a Scottish tradition that it is basically for men with Scottish connections. I hope that that will satisfy legitimate Scottish pride. But I hope, too, that there is no Scot in this House, or outside, who will say that this statement means that anyone with Scottish connections would be turned down for reasons of creed, colour, race or ethnic origin.

LORD BYERS

My Lords, will the noble Lord confirm that there is absolutely nothing to stop a coloured person born in Scotland from joining a Scottish regiment?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, if the noble Lord will read what I said—and I tried to be as careful and clear as possible—he will find that that is precisely what my reply amounted to.

LORD KILMANY

My Lords, will the noble Lord bear in mind that in my Question I specifically said not only "men of Scottish origin", but also "or connection". That covers the coloured man connected by birth or residence with Scotland.

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I accept what the noble Lord has said. I know that he is trying to be helpful. I only wish that some of the others who looked at some of these advertisements were equally helpful. There are some words in the Standing Orders of your Lordships' House that are relevant. Standing Order No. 29 might be borne in mind when some of these advertisements are considered. Standing Order No. 29 says: … as nothing offensive is to be spoken, so nothing is to be ill taken. In that spirit I think we should go a long way.

BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGER

My Lords, in view of the confusion arising in this matter, will my noble friend give his attention to the difference between national origin and racial origin, because the two are by no means identical?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, that is precisely what I have tried to say. There is absolutely no reason why a Negro with Scottish connections should not serve with pride in a Scottish regiment.

LORD BLYTON

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that this argument is purely fallacious? When we are at war and we need coloured men we do not care whether they are in a Scottish regiment or in the Durham Miners' Regiment. Why should we discriminate in peace time over something that we do not do in war time?

LORD BESWICK

My Lords, I am not sure to which argument my noble friend is referring: but I am quite sure I agree with what he says.

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