§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether it is yet possible to assess the success of the Certificate of Secondary Education examination, and how this year's results compare with results obtained previously.]
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, since 1966, the first year in which examinations were offered by all the Regional Examining Bodies for the Certificate of Secondary Education, the number of subject entries has risen from 520,000 to 836,000. This is an indication of confidence in the examination on the part of teachers and of virtually all universities and professional bodies, who recognise the achievement of a Grade 1 in the examination as equivalent to a 429 pass at "O" level in the General Certificate of Education. Also, employers and further education institutions increasingly rely on the achievement of Grades other than Grade 1 as indications of the pupil's level of attainment. The figures for this year's results are not yet complete. In 1968, 14.9 per cent. of the entries achieved Grade 1 and 94.8 per cent. achieved Grade 5 or over, compared with 13.6 per cent. and 93.9 per cent. in 1966 and 14.3 per cent. and 94.3 per cent. in 1967.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her reply, which seems to be encouraging. I wonder whether I may ask her a supplementary question. Has the noble Baroness any statistics of the number of pupils who decide to stay on for an extra year, or two years, in full-time education and who have taken this Certificate of Secondary Education examination? May I ask the noble Baroness a second supplementary question, not so encouraging? There was information in the pamphlet Education of the Associated Lancashire Schools Examining Board, and the North Western Board reported that in fact the results were not going to be so good this year. Does the noble Baroness know whether the Department has any further information about this matter?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am sorry that I have not the up-to-date figures and I have not the other figure for which the noble Lord asked. I have figures of my own which I feel that I must get in—
§ SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Hear, hear!
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSWell, I hope that meets with your Lordships' satisfaction. This information, I feel, may gladden the heart at any rate of my noble friend Lady Summerskill. It is that 13 per cent. of the boys took Grade 1, and 15 per cent. of the girls; and in Grade 4 it was 83 per cent. boys and 85 per cent. girls.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, the noble Baroness will know that that will gladden the hearts of noble Lords on this side of the House, because this examination was first thought out at the time when the Party on this side of the 430 House happened to be in power. May I ask one more supplementary question of the noble Baroness? I think that on the tape to-day there is the news that the Schools Council of the Standing Conference on University Education has made recommendations which may lead to the abolition of the G.C.E. and the taking of new examinations at ages at which hitherto they have not been taken. Is this in any way going to affect the Certificate of Secondary Education examination?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Belstead, is quite correct about the news that he has heard. I have only just received this news and should not like to comment on it, other than to say that Her Majesty's Government are always very open-minded about looking at any improvement in any examination.
§ LORD BELSTEADMy Lords, may I ask the noble Baroness whether she will allow me one more supplementary question? She has given a lot of information and I am grateful. On October 24, as reported in The Times the following day, the Minister of Education and Science, Mr. Short, when opening a new comprehensive school at Washington, County Durham, called for an end of examination "tyranny"—that was his word—in secondary schools. Those words might have run a very receptive bell for us when we were at school, but I must ask the noble Baroness whether this was a statement of Government policy.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD SHACKLETON)I should say "Put down another Question".
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, I am sure the noble Lord would agree that it is never quite fair to take a sentence in a speech out of context. Therefore I would rather not comment on it without discussing the whole speech.
§ LORD BEAUMONT OF WHITLEYMy Lords, would the noble Baroness not agree that the figures showing an advantage for girls in these examinations probably reflect the smaller proportion of girls taking G.C.E., and therefore they are not so favourable to girls as she has made out?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, perhaps I was unwise to give those figures, 431 but I could not resist doing so. I do not think that this is necessarily true. I have not the figures regarding the G.C.E. available, but what I will give the noble Lord is that in total there were fewer girls taking the examination to which I referred. Nevertheless, they had quality.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the fact that it appears to have been finally established that women's intelligence is a little higher than that of men, does not my noble friend think that it is a great pity that girl students are discriminated against in medical schools?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSYes my Lords, I would tell my noble friend that when I have visited a hospital I have never missed an opportunity to make the point which she has made so gallantly many times.
§ LORD LEATHERLANDMy Lords, leaving sex aside, may I ask my noble friend whether it is not a fact that facilities for education have improved so remarkably under the present Government that in the next few years there will be far more students qualified for university places than is the case to-day? And what are the Government going to do to increase the number of university places available for them?
§ BARONESS PHILLIPSMy Lords, much as I like the noble Lord's support, I must says that that is another question.