HL Deb 02 July 1968 vol 294 cc154-7

2.39 p.m.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government what is the present strength of the Territorial Army, what proportion of this total strength is likely to attend training in camp for a weekend or longer during the current financial year, and what proportion of the cost of such training is being borne, respectively, by the Central Government, T.A. associations and the units themselves.]

THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)

My Lords, I assume that the Question is directed at the Territorial and Army Volunteer Reserve. If so, the present overall strength of the T. & A.V.R. is 53,749, and it is expected that of this total strength between 40,000 and 48,000 men and women will attend training in camp for a weekend or longer Suring the current financial year. In the case of T. & A.V.R. Categories I, II and IV the cost of their training is borne entirely by the Central Government. No public funds will be spent on T. & A.V.R. III camps and the cost of any camps which they hold must be borne by the units themselves. Some private funds are however being raised from a number of sources including the Territorial, Auxiliary and Volunteer Reserve Associations and from the members themselves.

LORD INGLEWOOD

My Lords, will the noble Lord not agree that it is something which we can all be proud of that such a very large proportion of our volunteer forces in Categories I, II, III and IV will be attending some form of training this year in the face of a good many difficulties? But can he not also tell us that the money spent by units in Category III from their regimental funds in buying from the War Office petrol, rations and other items of equipment, such as 19-Sets, in order to make it possible for them to go to camp and make their training more realistic will be repaid at the end of the training season? It will seem shameful to the majority of people in this country that young men and women who give up their time at weekends for public service are then presented with a bill.

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, that was a very interesting speech on the subject of the Territorial Army. I agree entirely with the noble Lord that what is happening in these units reflects the spirit which has always been the spirit of the Territorial Army, or at least since the days when I was a Territorial soldier. But I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord the assurance for which he asks. We announced in January that Home Defence was to be placed on a care-and-maintenance basis and that therefore T. & A.V.R. III was to be disbanded. The decision was as simple as that. But we are having continuing discussions with the Council of the Territorial Army and Volunteer Reserve about ways of retaining the benefits which the Regular Army and other categories of the T. & A.V.R. get from T. & A.V.R. III.

LORD BARNBY

My Lords, the noble Lord gave figures of the present strengths. Is he in a position to give any figures of the establishments of the units incorporated in the strengths which he gave?

LORD CHALFONT

No, my Lords, I did not give any details of establishment to compare with the actual strengths. If the noble Lord would like to have that information, I can certainly get it for him.

LORD BARNBY

Thank you.

LORD ALPORT

My Lords, is it the Government's intention that the third category should be financed from private sources indefinitely? Secondly, how far are Regular units who may come into contact and be asked to help units these units during their annual training encouraged to give that help?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, so far as the second part of the question is concerned, I have already answered that. We are engaged in discussions on that point at the moment. The first part of the question is, I think, largely irrelevant. My answer to that is that the third category of T. & A.V.R. is to be disbanded.

LORD ALPORT

My Lords, does this mean that they are going to be suppressed by the Government. If it is possible to keep them going by private finance, will they be allowed and be given any encouragement to do so?

LORD CHALFONT

My Lords, what these units will do after disbandment is an entirely different question. It seems to me that it is unfair of the noble Lord to suggest, on the one hand, that we are going to leave these units to be financed by public funds and, on the other hand, to suggest that we are in some way suppressing them. We have said that so far as the Central Government are concerned this category is to be disbanded. If they remain in existence in some way after that, it would surely not be suggested by anybody that the financing of them should be chargeable to public funds.

LORD LEATHERLAND

My Lords, in view of the fact that the economic outlook is now brightening for the country—

SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Oh!

LORD LEATHERLAND

I am glad that that remark has given such joy to noble Lords opposite—will it still be necessary to save the £2 or £3 million involved in the disbandment of T. & A.V.R. III? May I ask the noble Lord whether the existence of T. & A.V.R. III is not essential to ensure a flow of recruits into T. & A.V.R. I and into the Regular Army? If we abolish T. & A.V.R. III, shall we not be wrecking the recruitment prospects of the Regular Army?

LORD CHALFONT

We have already discussed at very great length the arguments for and against the disbandment of T. & A.V.R.III. My noble friend will be aware of the arguments adduced for carrying out this disbandment, and I can give him no assurance that this decision will be reviewed.