§ 11.21 a.m.
§ LORD ROWLEYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the first Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what information they have with regard to the continued detention of the two British pilots in Algeria.]
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (LORD CHALFONT)My Lords, Her Majesty's Government are continuing to make repeated efforts to get the pilots released. I regret that no reply has yet been received to the representations made by the Swiss Ambassador, who protects our interests in Algeria, or by Her Majesty's Consul-General. The Swiss Ambassador, for whose efforts on our behalf I think the House would wish me to express gratitude, submitted on July 25 an urgent request for an audience with the Algerian Foreign Minister. He is repeating his request daily, but he had had no positive answer up to 6 p.m. yesterday evening.
§ LORD ROWLEYMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether it is a fact that the two Spanish police officers have now been released? If this be so, is it not becoming more and more frustrating that the Government of Algeria should keep these two British pilots in detention, without offering any explanation to Her Majesty's Government and without making any charges against them? Will not the Government instruct the noble Lord, Lord Caradon, to urge the Secretary-General of the United Nations to send a special emissary to Algiers in the 1108 name of the United Nations to secure the release of these two men; and, if he fails, to call a meeting of the Security Council and report the matter to them?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, our information confirms that the two Spanish guards have been released and have returned to Majorca. Of course it is frustrating that these two men continue to be held, apparently without any intention to bring charges against them. I can only repeat that we have made continuing representations to the Algerian Government, and we continue to do so through the Swiss Ambassador. We have indeed been in touch with my noble friend Lord Caradon, and the possibilities of action of this sort through the United Nations are by no means ruled out. But Her Majesty's Government believe that we should for the moment continue to press our representations through the Swiss Ambassador who looks after our interests there.
§ LORD OAKSHOTTMy Lords, it is not so much frustrating as outrageous that we can get no satisfaction, through the help of the Swiss Government, from the Government of Algeria. Is there really no way by which, for an act which has been universally condemned, these people can now be publicly arraigned before the United Nations?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I think it would be unprofitable to go into an exchange of adjectives, such as "frustrating" and "outrageous." We have made our representations about this, and the views of Her Majesty's Government are well known. There is in fact no existing machinery through the United Nations, which would have to be something connected with Human Rights machinery of the United Nations, and there is, I fear, no existing machinery for bringing this matter before a court of the United Nations. A suggestion has been made by my noble friend which may be followed up, but the simple answer is that all we can do in a case like this is to continue to make representations through whatever diplomatic channels are open to us.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I should like to put just two questions to the noble Lord. In the first place, following what the noble Lord, Lord Rowley, has said, given the fact that the two 1109 Spanish guards have been released, have the Government received any information from the Spanish authorities about the circumstances in which this act of piracy took place? Secondly, is he aware that there is growing anxiety in this country about the inability of Her Majesty's Government, in this and other cases, to protect the elementary rights of British subjects?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, so far as the Spanish guards are concerned, it is possible, now that they have been returned to Spain, that the Spanish Government may be able to throw further light on the actual circumstances of this affair. We have, as yet, received no information about this from the Spanish Government. So far as the second part of the noble Earl's question is concerned, I can only say that I know of no other way in which a civilised Government can bring pressure to bear on a Government behaving like this except through whatever diplomatic channels are open to them and through the United Nations. I have said that no machinery exists in the United Nations, and I should be grateful to know what action the noble Earl would propose other than continuing to bring the strongest pressure to bear through diplomatic channels. I personally can think of no other way.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord one simple question? Have Her Majesty's Government asked the Spanish Government for a report on this case?
§ LORD CHALFONTWe have not been in touch with the Spanish Government since—
SEVERAL NOBLE LORDS: Why not?
§ LORD CHALFONTIf I may just finish my answer to the question, perhaps it will become clear. We have not been in touch with the Spanish Government since the release of the guards. It is possible now, as I say, that the Spanish Government will be able to throw further light on what happened, and I can assure the House that Her Majesty's Government will not let this particular channel of obtaining information go unexplored.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, I must point out that Her Majesty's Government 1110 still remain in diplomatic relations with the Spanish Government.
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORT FOLIO (LORD SHACKLETON)My Lords, if I may intervene, the noble Earl is not in a position to point out anything. He must ask a question.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord what is the position with regard to the British aircraft concerned in this episode, and whether the Government have taken up the matter of the British aircraft with any of the international air organisations?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, as the House will know, the British aircraft, which is a privately owned one, is in Algeria with the pilots, and we have made representations for the return of the aircraft, as we have for the release of the pilots.
§ LORD ROWLEYMay I ask my noble friend whether he would clarify something he said in reply to my Question? He would not suggest, would he, that under the United Nations Charter the Secretary-General has no power to send a special emissary to make investigations into any situation which, for example, is a threat to international peace, or which may lead to international friction.
§ LORD CHALFONTNo, my Lords, I would not make any such suggestion. I was merely pointing out that under the existing human rights machinery there is no way of bringing this matter before the United Nations. Of course, the Secretary-General has the right to appoint an investigator in a case like this; but I should point out, I think, that the appointment of an investigator is one thing but getting him into Algeria to examine the situation may be quite another.
§ LORD RUSSELL OF LIVERPOOLMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he can give your Lordships' House an assurance that steps will now be taken immediately to get in touch with the Spanish Government in order to get this information, instead of just getting up and saying, "We have not heard", or "We have not yet approached them"? I hope the noble Lord realises that not only your Lordships' House but the whole country is absolutely disgusted with what is going on at the present moment.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I can only say that Her Majesty's Government share the disquiet of noble Lords about this whole business. I would ask the House to be assured that we are not treating this matter at all lightly, but, as I have said many times before, we have to take account of the diplomatic means that are open to us. We do not propose to use any means that are not diplomatic in this particular case. So far as obtaining further information from the Spanish Government is concerned, this again is a matter of diplomatic channels and diplomatic relations. Other factors have to be taken into account, but I can assure the House that we will consider very urgently the desirability of asking the Spanish Government to let us have what information they possess.
EARL JELLICOEMy Lords, in view of what the noble Lord has said, may I ask whether Her Majesty's Government will take the simple diplomatic step of asking the Spanish Government for information about this case?
§ LORD CHALFONTYes, my Lords, we will ask the Spanish Government to give us what information they have about this case. I am not entirely sure that they will be able to throw much more light on it than there is at the moment; but I agree that there is no harm in trying.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, I have listened to the noble Lord with considerable sympathy. Is it not rather dangerous at this stage even to hint that there may be difficulty in getting an emissary of the United Nations into Algeria? Surely, an emissary of the United Nations must be received wherever he goes. Even to hint that there may be difficulties appears to me to be dangerous.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I am sorry if the noble Lord thinks it dangerous to hint at this possibility; but I can only say that in the world as it is today it is not by any means certain that anybody can gain access to the facts of a case like this. The difficulty of Her Majesty's Government in getting access to the pilots and information about the case surely demonstrates that fully.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, can the noble Lord assure the House that charges are not going to be preferred against these 1112 pilots, in view of the fact that one of the Sunday newspapers indicated that charges may be preferred?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, Her Majesty's Government have no information that the Algerian authorities plan to bring any charges. As I said in reply to a Question on July 18, the pilots themselves have told the head of the British Interests Section that they have had no indication that they are likely to be charged.