HL Deb 26 July 1967 vol 285 cc967-72

4.4 p.m.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I should like to repeat a Statement which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has made in another place to-day. I will use his own words:

"In reply to a number of Questions on 27th April I said that the Government were studying the first report of the Race Relations Board, the P.E.P. report on racial discrimination and other available evidence and would consider the need for and the practicability of strengthening the Race Relations Act and the administrative machinery.

"Our preliminary studies are now complete. Good race relations must of course substantially depend upon voluntary effort and a good climate of public opinion. But our conclusion is that these by themselves are not enough. Further legislation is therefore necessary.

"The Government have decided in principle that the Race Relations Act should be extended to deal with discrimination on grounds of colour, race or ethnic or national origins in employment, housing, insurance and credit facilities. In addition public places will be given a wider definition than under the present Act. Details of the necessary amending legislation will now be worked out in consultation with those concerned, including the T.U.C., the C.B.I. and the nationalised industries. We propose that, in relation to employment, the new legislation should provide the fullest possible opportunity for industry to use its own machinery for conciliation.

"I believe that legislation on these lines will strengthen the position of all those who are anxious to co-operate in removing racial discrimination from our national life and will provide a necessary ultimate sanction against the few who are determined not to do so."

LORD BROOKE OF CUMNOR

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord for repeating that important Statement by the Home Secretary. Will he accept that many of us may wish to reserve our further views on it until we see the detailed proposals in legislative form? Is the noble Lord aware that all your Lordships are determined not to allow racial hatred to rear its horrible head in this country? Is he aware that we all are ready to welcome any practical plans for better conciliation or reconciliation? Is he further aware that not by any means all people are convinced that new criminal sanctions will, in the long run, improve race relations or conduce to a good climate of public opinion and these, as the Statement itself accepts, are the essential aims of policy and, I would say, of humanity.

LORD WADE

My Lords, on behalf of those on the Liberal Benches, may I thank the noble Lord for repeating this Statement. The Government are to be congratulated on the decision to strengthen the Race Relations Act, particularly in the light of the Report of the Race Relations Board. Can the noble Lord give an assurance that the details of the proposed legislation will be worked out with a sense of urgency, as there is considerable evidence to suggest that time is not on our side in this matter?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, and to the noble Lord, Lord Wade, for the welcome they have given to the Statement and particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, for the declaration he has made on points of principle. We welcome the sentiments he has expressed. I think his main point was that not all people are convinced that criminal sanctions will improve race relations. That is something the Government will accept, and we shall go to the limit with conciliation in all fields. But our investigations and consultations convince us that present legislation is not enough, and that ultimately there must be other sanctions to deal with the few who will not comply with the normal laws of decent conduct which most people wish to observe.

With regard to the request of the noble Lord, Lord Wade, for an assurance that details will be worked out as quickly as possible, it will not surprise him to know that we have been engaged on this for a long time and that already we have had a great many consultations. Certainly the work is being pressed forward, but particularly in view of what the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Cumnor, said, we will await the details and there will be an opportunity for discussion of the details when the legislation is published. We must do our utmost to ensure not only that there is the fullest possible consultation, but that what we eventually put forward is not just something on paper but something that will work.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether he is aware that many of us who have been associated for many years in urging legislation of this character welcome very much the Statement which he has made? I do not want to appear trifling and therefore I will ask only two questions—I do not wish to appear trifling because I am so enthusiastic about what is being done. My two questions are these. First, how long does he think that this examination will have to take—the discussions with the T.U.C., the C.B.I. and others—and is my noble friend aware that there is now an intense urgency on this issue, because the terrible psychology which has now been aroused in America is infectious and epidemic and may build on conditions here? My second question is this. Although the Bill deals with racial discrimination, would the Government consider, when they are discussing the amending Bill, extending it to religious discrimination as well; because the evidence is fairly widespread that discrimination takes place not only on racial grounds but also on religious grounds?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, with regard to my noble friend's first question, about how long the examination will take, I would say that the examination has been going on for many months, and my right honourable friend is very conscious of the need for urgent action. The examination will continue no longer than is strictly necessary to produce a viable and workable measure, but I cannot be committed any further than that. With regard to the question of extending it to religion, my Lords, the answer is, "No". We do not intend to include religion in any new legislation. Religious belief, I think we would all agree, is a matter of conscious choice; race or national origin is not a matter of choice.

LORD ELTON

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Stonham, and the Government will not accept from the noble Lord, Lord Brockway, one of his arguments, to the effect that one reason for urgency for providing this legislation is the example of the terrible things now happening in America. I think that anyone who is in close touch with the situation realises that our circumstances here, the different nature of the immigration and so forth, are such that nothing of that kind is likely here in the foreseeable future.

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, the Government have had this matter under consideration for some time. Action, when it is taken, will be taken because it is necessary, and we shall take such action as we consider is necessary. There is no vestige of panic about anything we are doing.

LORD BROCKWAY

My Lords, I am sorry to have to ask a further question, but when my noble friend says that religion, because it is a matter of individual conscience, does not come within the scope of the Bill, is he aware that many of us agree with him in the case of incitement? But if to be a Catholic or a Jew is to be denied a house or denied employment, why should that discrimination not be included with other discriminations on grounds of race?

LORD STONHAM

My Lords, I really cannot accept that that is so, but I think it would be much better if my noble friend awaited the proposals which we shall eventually bring forward in regard to discrimination in housing and in other matters.