§ 2.51 p.m.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ ?To ask Her Majesty's Government whether a protest has been made by them to the Egyptian Government concerning the treatment of Squadron-Leader (Retd.) Hindle James, who is seventy-four years of age and suffering from angina pectoris, following his arrest on June 6 and his subsequent treatment and interrogation by the Egyptian Police.]
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, Squadron-Leader Hindle James was arrested on June 6, having previously been warned by our Consul to leave Egypt in view of the danger of hostili 688 ties. The British Interests Section of the Canadian Embassy made repeated and vigorous protests to the Ministeries of Foreign Affairs and the Interior against his arrest and that of other British subjects. As a result, he was released and placed on board ship two days later.
The full details of the treatment accorded to Squadron-Leader Hindle James did not become available to the Foreign Office until later and, in the circumstances, we considered that a protest against his treatment under arrest and the refusal of the U.A.R. authorities to allow him to communicate with his doctor or with our Consul would not have been in Squadron-Leader Hindle James's own interest.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that this old, sick man was dragged off in his pyjamas and night clothes, though no charge was made against him; that a black bag was forced over his head; that he was incarcerated in a cell where he was brutally interrogated; that he was not allowed to communicate with his doctor or with the British Consul; that a further attack of angina pectoris, to which he was subject, ensued and he was left on a bloodstained mattress for the night; that next day he was further interrogated, then manacled to a young member of the British Embassy staff and deposited with many others in a large cell, which previously was used as a latrine, until after many hours they were put on board a German ship and taken to Athens? Do Her Majesty's Government still say, in view of those facts, that there is no need for the strongest protest by Her Majesty's Government in this country as well as by the Canadian Government, and no need for a demand for full compensation?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the answer is, Yes, Her Majesty's Government still do believe that a protest at this time would do no good, and might in fact do Squadron-Leader Hindle James considerable harm. Her Majesty's Government are aware of the facts adduced by the noble Marquess. They are deplorable. We are extremely sorry for Squadron-Leader Hindle James, who seems to have behaved with great courage throughout all these transactions. But 689 may I remind the noble Marquess that Squadron-Leader Hindle James has considerable property in Egypt. So far as we know he may wish to return there, and any further protest we make now might jeopardise his chances of doing so. This is the judgment we have made, and I think it would not be worth while, and would not achieve anything in the present circumstances, to protest further.
§ LORD ROWLEYMy Lords, would not my noble friend agree that a new problem is facing the world and the United Nations, in that some of the members of the United Nations behave in a half-civilised manner against individuals, and there seems to be no remedy either as a result of this Government's action or any other Government's action?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, there is a great deal of force in what my noble friend says. I assure the House and the noble Marquess that in the forefront of our minds in this case is the welfare, present and future, of the unfortunate individual concerned. If we believed that a protest at this time would do him any good, we should make it. Our judgment is that it might do him harm, and we have therefore decided that a further protest would not be appropriate.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, has the noble Lord any knowledge of other British subjects who were treated in a like manner?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, we have reports of a number of things that went on in the United Arab Republic and in other countries in the Middle East during this unfortunate period. There is a great deal that I personally should like to say about it. I have a great deal of sympathy with the views reflected in what the noble Marquess and the noble Lord have said, but I ask your Lordships' House to believe that if we make protests at this moment, while they may involve a certain amount of moral catharsis and may make us feel a good deal better, if in doing so we damage the welfare of people who have since returned from the U.A.R., and of people who may still be there, I think the balance of advantage will be against us.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, have the Government any information about the young member of the British Embassy staff who, Squadron-Leader Hindle James says, was manacled to him during this period?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, we have had reports and information about that incident, and of course we have reports about the way in which other members of British Embassy staffs were treated during this period. I can only repeat, without wishing to go over the ground which I have already covered, that in this particular case the thing which stands out in my mind is the extraordinary courage with which the members of our Embassy staffs have behaved.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I only wish Her Majesty's Government had shown the same courage.
§ LORD WAKEFIELD OF KENDALMy Lords, have this information and the facts which have been given to this House been put before the United Nations, either privately or publicly?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, the facts are available to the United Nations. I feel it is worth while saying once more that I feel deeply resentful of the suggestion that Her Majesty's Government have been lacking in courage in this affair. It needs no courage to make protests. It does need courage to remain silent when we know that the welfare of British people is at stake, and it is that welfare which we seek to support.
§ LORD SEGALMy Lords, is my noble friend in a position to convey to the House what numbers of British subjects have been placed under arrest in the United Arab Republic, how many of them have so far been released, and how many are still being detained by the U.A.R.?
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I do not, of course, have that information by me at the moment—it is wide of the original Question asked by the noble Marquess. But if my noble friend would like to put down a Question I will try to get the information for him.
§ BARONESS EMMET OF AMBERLEYMy Lords, though one can understand the reasons why the Minister and the 691 Government do not wish to make a formal protest, would it not be wise to make these facts known? Otherwise, the Government will, in a sense, align themselves with what has happened. There may be no harm in the facts being known, even if a protest is not made.
§ LORD CHALFONTMy Lords, I can assure the noble Baroness that after the Question asked this afternoon by the noble Marquess, many millions of people will know these facts.