§ 2.44 p.m.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government why permission was refused for the Scots Guards Band to provide music at the laying of a wreath at the Cenotaph in memory of Rhodesian troops who died fighting side by side with our own troops in two world wars.]
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the request was from the Anglo-Rhodesian Society. There is a rule that military bands should not accept engagements with bodies having partisan or controversial aims.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, whilst, of course, I thank the noble Lord for his reply, may I ask him this further question? Is he aware that very many people in this country are ashamed and distressed that a British Government should have introduced this note of politics into an act of remembrance at the Cenotaph? Is he further aware that the Salvation Army have accepted an assurance that this service is neither political nor racial; and does he not think that that would be a better example to follow than that set by Her Majesty's Government? And may we have an assurance that Her Majesty's Government will not seek, either directly or indirectly, to influence the Salvation Army to follow their own very had example?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I must say that I regret the terms in which the noble Lord has asked his supplementary question. I must give him the facts, of which he appears to be unaware. There is a longstanding rule—the noble Lord can look it up in Queen's Regulations—that Army bands should not play for any body or society having political or controversial aims. They could not, for instance, play for the Conservative Party or for the Labour Party. I should like to correct what must be a misapprehension—otherwise I do not think the noble Lord would have asked his 890 supplementary in those terms. The ceremony at the Cenotaph is in memory of the dead of the British Commonwealth. The wreaths that are laid there are laid by the representatives of Governments in memory of all the dead of the Commonwealth. In the absence of a legal Rhodesian Government representative in London, a wreath is to be laid by the Commonwealth Secretary, representing the legal Government. My Lords, I very much hope that this will not become a subject of great controversy.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I suppose that in intervening on this subject I ought to declare an interest, because I am the President of the Anglo-Rhodesian Society, from whom the idea of laying the wreath originated. I do not imagine that it ever occurred to anyone in the Society that the laying of this wreath could be regarded as anything but an act of simple piety by the Rhodesians towards their own war dead; and if it is suggested from any quarter that any political flavour can properly be attached to this occasion, which I deny, that, I am afraid, has been imported by the Government themselves by their original attempt to differentiate for political reasons between the Rhodesians and the other—
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am coming to my question. It is just coming now. In these circumstances, may I ask the Government whether they will give an assurance, whatever their general rules are, that they at any rate do not suggest that on this occasion the Society has been actuated by any unworthy motive in holding their service?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, the fact that the noble Marquess is President of the Society does not of course guarantee that it does not have partisan aims. This is a very simple issue. Queen's Regulations in fact forbid the use of the band in these particular circumstances. It is Her Majesty's Government who have been accused of politics in this matter, and I hope the noble Marquess will himself play a part in limiting the extent to which this controversy has developed. No one, least of all Her Majesty's Government or anyone who has been associated with the Armed Forces, would 891 wish to do anything other than honour the dead of all the Commonwealth, including all those gallant men from Rhodesia.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYBut the noble Lord has not answered my question. I asked for an assurance that the Government did not suggest that this Society was actuated by anything but the most worthy motives in holding their own service. He can, at any rate, answer that question.
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I have no knowledge of the motives which induced the Anglo-Rhodesian Society to hold this particular ceremony.
§ BARONESS WOOTTON OF ABINGERMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend whether the answer he has already given means that the memory of Rhodesian troops who lost their lives in the war will, in fact, be commemorated through the action of the Commonwealth Secretary?
§ LORD SHACKLETONI am grateful to my noble friend. This is entirely true. Every wreath that is laid on the Cenotaph is in memory of all the dead of the Commonwealth on behalf of the inhabitants of the particular territory.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I am sure the hedging answer which the noble Lord has given will be received with shock by many thousands of people in this country, and I am sure that it will react much more against the Government than against the Society.
§ THE EARL OF LONGFORDMy Lords, since the noble Marquess refused to give way to me, I could not, of course, interrupt him; but, with all deference to one who occupies a special position in this House, I would suggest he has abused Question Time on at least two occasions this afternoon.
§ LORD GRIMSTON OF WESTBURYMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that nobody will think that those who framed the Queen's Regulation, which quite properly stops bands from playing at political functions, would ever have thought that its interpretation would be twisted in order to bring politics into a ceremony at the Cenotaph?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, I really think the noble Lord can help no one by that remark. The Regulations specifically relate to bodies having partisan or controversial aims. I have no wish—and I would say this to the noble Marquess, Lord Salisbury—to attack the Anglo-Rhodesian Society, but it is not possible to suggest, when you see some of the literature that has been produced, that they do not have partisan aims. They are perfectly entitled to have partisan aims; it is just that it is highly desirable that the bands of Her Majesty's Forces should not be seen in any way to be involved with politics, and this includes not solely the purpose for which a band is invited but the nature of the society who asked them to play.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, was not this engagement for the band originally accepted; and was it not accepted that it was in order for the band to play at this service at the Cenotaph? If that was so, what instructions were given, and by whom, to cancel that engagement?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, it is correct to say that it was accepted. But it was accepted in error because the authority who accepted it, not surprisingly, was unaware of the particular application of this rule in relation to the Anglo-Rhodesian Society. I do not wish to criticise or embark on exchanges about the Anglo-Rhodesian Society, but I must point out that the Society do have controversial and partisan purposes. When this was discovered, the actual under taking was withdrawn.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEWith respect the noble Lord has not answered the second part of my question. On whose instructions was the undertaking with drawn? Was it on the instructions of Her Majesty's Government?
§ LORD SHACKLETONThe noble Viscount is surely familiar enough with the procedure to know that any instruction which is delivered or performed is done in the name of the Government, and Her Majesty's Government, of any complexion, accept responsibility. He knows perfectly well that it is no use probing me on this particular matter because any Minister in your Lordships' House must take responsibility personally for the decision.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, whilst not wishing in any way to relieve the noble Lord of such responsibilities as he may have, I would ask the question whether the Government in fact gave the instruction, because I thought it conceivable that someone else might have discovered that there was an error.
LORD INGLEWOODMy Lords, since there was a squadron of Rhodesians integrated with the Northumberland Hussars, would the band of the Northumberland Hussars be allowed to play at the Cenotaph in memory of their own regimental dead?