HL Deb 16 February 1966 vol 272 cc1043-5

2.15 p.m.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government how much money the Forestry Commission expect to receive each year from the £4 charge per horse per annum from organised commercial riding establishments and from the £2 charge per annum from regular riders; what is the cost of collecting the above charges; and whether to their knowledge any private individuals or bodies have imposed such charges.]

THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF LAND AND NATURAL RESOURCES (LORD MITCHISON)

My Lords, in 1966 the Forestry Commission expect to receive about £700 from the £4 charge, and about £300 from the £2 charge. Receipts are expected to remain at this level for the next year or two. The cost of collection is negligible because permits to riders in the forests have to be issued in any case so as to retain control of access, and most of them are issued to riding schools. I have no knowledge about the practices of private landowners.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

My Lords, do Her Majesty's Government really think it worth while that the Forestry Commission should incur a certain amount of odium, and act as a bad precedent to private landlords, by imposing a charge that brings in what is, comparatively speaking, a negligible amount of money? Further, do the Government not agree that, on the whole, the damage is done by the unorganised riders (if that is the right description) and not by the organised riders, who always have leaders well versed in the countryside code?

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, we considered this matter in reply to a Question from the noble Duke on July 22, and I believe these points were raised then. I am afraid that I have nothing to add to what was said then. I think that in the circumstances this is a reasonable charge. It is made not for casual riding but, as regards the larger charge, to people who are making a quite proper commercial use of forest facilities, and, as regards the smaller charge, to those who frequent the forests regularly for riding during a year.

LORD AMULREE

My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord could tell me why the Forestry Commissioners have suddenly, as I understand, decided to put this charge on the riding schools.

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, I regret that I am not acquainted with the reasons for any change of policy about this matter— indeed, I did not know there had been one. All I can say is that, as matters now stand, it seems to me a reasonable charge to make for these uses of the forests, and a proper one for a public authority to make.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, may I ask the Government whether any people have refused to pay these charges; and, if so, whether interdicts have been applied for against them, and what has been the cost of the interdicts?

LORD MITCHISON

Not to my knowledge, my Lords. All I can say is that, having regard to what the noble Lord said on the last occasion this matter arose, I made the most careful inquiries about the law of Scotland (of which I am wholly ignorant) and was unable to discover that anybody was breaking it in this respect.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

My Lords, does the noble Lord realise that one pony-trekking operator would have to pay something like 80 landlords if all private landlords emulated the Forestry Commission in this respect? Does he really think this is the way to encourage people to make recreational use of public facilities?

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, I can only repeat that these matters were raised before, and that I have nothing to add to the answers I then made. I think the charge is a reasonable and proper one in all the circumstances. I am sorry that the noble Duke thinks the charge is too small, but I do not think he wishes me to suggest that it should be increased.

LORD SALTOUN

My Lords, would the noble Lord make inquiries about my question as to whether anybody has refused to pay, and whether any interdicts have been applied for against them? If he would let me know afterwards, that would be quite sufficient, but I should like to know.

LORD MITCHISON

My Lords, I will certainly check and let the noble Lord know, but I did make inquiries about the law and I am sure that, if there had been a case on the matter, I should have been told about it.

LORD REA

My Lords, the noble Lord said that he had nothing to add on this matter. Can he hold out any hopes of a subtraction?

LORD MITCHISON

No, my Lords.