§ 3.12 p.m.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the second Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government to state the size, the type and the purpose of the grant given by the Board of Trade to W. & J. B. Eastwood Limited for the erection of a £1½ million broiler enterprise in Carmarthenshire.]
§ THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, BOARD OF TRADE (LORD RHODES)My Lords, it is not the practice of my right honourable friend to disclose details of assistance to particular firms under the Local Employment Acts, as these are confidential.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, I must thank the noble Lord at least for providing an Answer, but I am sorry that the Answer was not quite so informative as I had expected. I would declare an interest in this, because I am a producer of this type of chicken meat. I would ask the noble Lord whether he considers it a prudent expenditure of public funds for the production of a certain commodity to be encouraged and to be subsidised, when in fact that commodity is overproduced already?
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, in answer to that Question, may I say, in another way, that in this matter the position of the Board of Trade is really like that of a banker to his client; and I am not going to be the first Board of Trade Minister to disobey the rules.
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, is my noble friend aware that this firm of Eastwood frequently operate on land which is virtually derelict? I know 881 that the noble Lord is aware of the very big business which they have just opened on very poor land not so far from where he and I live. Furthermore, would my noble friend bear in mind that this and other similar firms are producing chickens relatively cheaply, and have now brought them within the weekly reach of the ordinary people of this country? At one time chickens used to be on the table only once a year, at Christmas time. This has made them a weekly event. Would my noble friend not agree that this is a very good thing?
§ LORD RHODESYes, indeed, my Lords. Yesterday we had a debate on rising prices. It is refreshing to hear of a commodity for which prices are being reduced.
§ VISCOUNT DILHORNEMy Lords, arising out of the noble Lord's original Answer, is he in fact saying that no information has to be given to Parliament on the way these grants are made to particular companies? And are we to take it that that is Government policy, and will be pursued under the powers which they propose to take, if they can, in regard to investment in industry generally? Does it mean that the taxpayers' money can be used by the Government without the taxpayer being informed at all of the purposes for which it is intended?
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, the last part of the noble and learned Viscount's question is altogether outside the scope of the original Question. I cannot be led away on that. We are continuing the excellent precept set by the last Government.
§ LORD CARRINGTONBut this is not so, my Lords, and surely my noble and learned friend's question was germane. The noble Lord in his original Answer said that he was not prepared to disclose any of the reasons for which money was given. Is that really so?
§ LORD RHODESYes, it is, because if particulars were given about the transitions between the Board of Trade and a particular firm under the Local Employment Act, that would be a disclosure of matters which might have detrimental effects on other firms coming forward.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, does he noble Lord realise that in fact this 882 firm—and I have no quarrel with it at all—produces 21 million birds a year, which is 20 per cent, of the production of the country, and that the Government, by this action, have deliberately encouraged the production of a further 7 million birds at a time when the market is saturated? Is this sensible?
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, I am not going to comment on that, but I must repeat that the confidential nature of this kind of transaction is very important to other people who come along to the Board of Trade with the prospect of setting up a firm in a development area.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord if this assistance is so confidential that it will not be disclosed to the shareholders in the annual accounts of the company involved?
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, I do not doubt that it will be disclosed in that way. In fact, I believe that would be highly desirable. But it is not highly desirable that we should divulge information on the assistance we give to a firm.
EARL FERRERSMy Lords, even if the noble Lord cannot provide the details, will he not say whether he thinks it is sensible for the Government to subsidise a part of an industry which is already greatly over-producing?
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, I cannot comment on that this afternoon.
§ LORD HILTON OF UPTONMy Lords, would my noble friend not agree that this is just a continuation of the policy of the previous Government, to provide employment for people in development areas, and the areas of Norfolk of which the noble Earl, Lord Ferrers, is well aware, and that this industry is now providing work for people who have been displaced from agriculture? I should have thought that it was a continuation of Tory policy.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, I am sorry, but I must pursue my question further, as the point troubles me. Surely, if the assistance given is as confidential as all that, it is tempting the people managing the company to conceal from shareholders the assistance which is so given, and is giving a false air of prosperity to the concern. I am a little troubled, not from the point of view of the Ministry, 883 but from the point of view of general public policy.
THE LORD BISHOP OF SOUTHWARKMy Lords, would the noble Lord tell the House the conditions which may be attached to this sort of grant?
§ LORD RHODESYes, my Lords. On the general pattern of assistance which is given to firms going into a development area, it is on the basis of mopping up unemployment in that area.
LORD SALTOUNMy Lords, I am sorry to persist in my question. My question was: will this assistance be subject, sooner or later, to complete disclosure, or will it not? This is a matter in which the Government must have interested themselves, and on which I should expect an answer.
§ LORD RHODESYes, my Lords, I think that is so—but not by me.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, are we to understand that this grant has been made, not because the broilers are needed, but merely to mop up unemployment?
§ LORD RHODESMy Lords, I did not associate the question of mopping up unemployment with this particular firm. I have not expressed any views about the particular firm as regards assistance under any Act.
§ EARL FORTESCUEMy Lords, can the Minister say on what terms our money was given to this firm.
§ LORD RHODESThe only way of finding out is for the noble Lord to ask the firm. I am not disclosing it this afternoon.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, does the noble Lord realise that it is not the Government which governs this country, but Parliament; and Parliament ought to be given the information.
§ LORD CITRINEMy Lords, is the noble Lord not aware that the Government have certain proposals for the full disclosure of the operations of companies, and does not this request from the Opposition strengthen the Government's hand in seeing that that legislation is carried forward?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, am I not right in thinking that the noble Lord said that the purpose of this grant was not that of mopping up unemployment? What, then, is the purpose of the grant?
§ LORD RHODESNo, my Lords, I did not say anything about the purpose of any grant——
§ LORD CARRINGTONWhat is the purpose?
§ LORD RHODES—in relation to this firm. My reply to the right reverend Prelate was on the principle on which such a grant could be given.
§ LORD CARRINGTONThe noble Lord was asked what the purpose was in the original Question.
§ LORD RHODESYes, and up to now I have succeeded in refusing it.
§ LORD DRUMALBYNMy Lords, is not the purpose of the grant set out in the Act itself under which the grant is made? Is it not also the fact that the Board of Trade gives these grants on the advice of the Board of Trade Advisory Committee, but is not bound to accept that advice and must consider the national interest at the same time as considering the views of the Board of Trade Advisory Committee?
§ LORD RHODESI thank the noble Lord very much for that assistance. May I also say that consultations take place with the Ministry of Agriculture as well.