THE PENAL SYSTEM (Hansard, 27 April 1966)

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
My Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to repeat a Statement which has just been made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister in another place. His words were:
"I have to inform the House that the Queen, on my recommendation, has approved the dissolution of the Royal Commission on the Penal System in England and Wales. In its place my right honourable friend the Home Secretary will a point a standing Advisory Council to make recommendations about such aspects of penal treatment as he may refer to it or as the Council itself, after consulting my right honourable, friend, feels it ought to consider.
163 "The Royal Commission, whose terms of reference had been reported to the House on the 16th of April, 1964 (columns 601–5), was appointed in August, 1964 with sixteen members under the Chairmanship of Lord Amory.
"While no fundamental differences within the Commission on philosophy and principles have manifested themselves, six of the members have felt increasingly that the time is not opportune for a single review of the penal system, leading to a comprehensive report, which could set the direction for a generation. They are in favour of early experimental changes in the system, but they believe that such changes, combined with the relative lack of conclusive research results, will make it difficult in the near future to offer recommendations designed to last for a lengthy period. These members recently tendered their resignations; and two others felt that, in these circumstances, the Royal Commission could not usefully continue, and they also tendered their resignations.
"The remaining eight members, including the Chairman, took the view that the task of carrying through a fundamental and searching re-appraisal of the purposes of a modern penal system and the methods by which those purposes should be translated into practice, was entirely feasible for this Royal Commission. This being their view, they would have preferred to have completed the Commission's task, and, following the resignations, would have wished appropriate new appointments to be made to augment the remaining membership.
"It appeared to the Government that the better course would be to dissolve the Commission and appoint a new standing body. The evidence obtained by the Commission will be published and made available to the new Council; and it will be kept informed of the results of research in the fields of criminology and penology, in the planning of which my right honourable friend the Home, secretary now has the assistance of a strong Research Council.
"The new Advisory Council, unlike the Royal Commission, will be able to report from time to time on those 164 aspects of the treatment of offenders on which advice is urgently required; and it can itself take up matters which, after consulting my right honourable friend, it considers to be important.
"While the Chairman and some of the members consider that a fundamental re-appraisal by the Royal Commission should first have been completed, the Royal Commission as a whole are in agreement that the permanent machinery of Government should now be strengthened by the establishment of a body exercising a continuous review of developments in the penal field.
"A further announcement giving the membership and terms of reference of the new body will be made as soon as possible."
That, my Lords, is the conclusion of the Statement made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister.

§ LORD DERWENT
My Lords, I am sure that the whole House is grateful to the noble and learned Lord who sits on the Woolsack for repeating the Prime Minister's Statement. Speaking for my-self—and the noble and learned Lord will appreciate that I have not yet had time to consult some of my colleagues, in both Houses, who are very interested in this matter—I have the feeling that this is probably the right decision. I think it is the right decision, certainly from my point of view, who may have to criticise certain home affairs matters which the Government carry out, because there are among certain members of the Party opposite some ideas as regards penal reform to which I do not think I can agree.
As I see it, the effect of having this Advisory Council will be that if these ideas, which I personally do not much like, are put into force and are found not to work, the Home Secretary of the day will have comparatively instant advice as to why the Advisory Council think they are not working. And as some of these are very new-ideas, which I know are held by noble Lords opposite, I do not think that the Royal Commission could really act in reasonable time on new experiments. For that reason I think that this Advisory Council is probably a good idea.
There are two matters that I would put to the noble and learned Lord. On 165 first listening to this Statement, one imagines that the Advisory Council will have a good deal of independence, but twice there occurs the phrase (referring more or less to its independence on matters it can bring forward itself), "after consulting with my right honourable friend". I would ask the noble and learned Lord if he can say at this stage whether in fact the leading strings will not be too tight. The other matter about which I should like to ask is this. This, of course, is to be—at least, I take it to be such—an Advisory Council to the Home Secretary. Is it envisaged that the Advisory Council will publish reports which will be available to the general public? I think that if that could be arranged it would be of enormous benefit in the whole question of penal reform, because everyone would then understand what people are trying to do.

LORD REA
My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor replies, may I also thank him for repeating the Statement from the other House. Although we have had very little time to consider this matter, it must strike most of us as in some ways a confession of failure. The Royal Commission was a very important Commission, of very eminent people, and it is sad that for some reason they have not been able to come to a constructive solution on the things before them. Nevertheless, it is, as I say, too early to judge this, and we put our trust in what has been advised. I would endorse the hope expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, that, in default of a decision having been made for all time by the Royal Commission, this Advisory Council will be reporting publicly and frequently.

§ LORD BOOTHBY
My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor replies, I should like to put just one question. Will the advice of this Advisory Council be available to the Secretary of State for Scotland, as well as to the Secretary of State for the Home Department?

§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR
My Lords, in answer to the first question raised both by the noble Lord, Lord Derwent, and by the noble Lord, Lord Rea, I have no reason at all to think that the leading strings will be too tight. The 166 second question, as to whether the Advisory Committee's reports will be published, I am afraid I cannot answer without notice. It was, I think, the practice with the old Advisory Committee on the Treatment of Offenders, that their reports were published, but we shall be discussing these questions to-morrow, and perhaps the noble Lord would be good enough to repeat the question then, and I shall be happy to answer it to-morrow. With regard to Scotland, while I have no precise information, I cannot think that any information which my right honourable friend the Home Secretary has and which might be useful to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland would be withheld from him.