§ 2.35 p.m.
§ LORD CROOKMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they are satisfied that the injection into animals, prior to slaughter, of the enzyme preparation papain—with a view to securing that the meat of the animals appears artificially to be tender—is in the interests of the public.]
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (LORD ST. OSWALD)My Lords, papain is a natural substance occurring in the juice of the papaw fruit, which has been widely used for a very long time in the preparation of food. I know of no reason to suppose that meat treated with papain under the process to which the noble Lord refers is in any way harmful to the consumer. My right honourable friend is, however, referring the matter to the Pharmacology Panel of the Food Additives Sub-Committee of the Food Standards Committee, for advice. He has also asked the Food Standards Committee, who are now engaged on a general review of the labelling of food, to consider whether any special labelling is desirable on meat which has been treated in this way.
§ LORD CROOKMy Lords, while thanking the noble Lord for his Answer and for his ability in getting his tongue round all the words involved in the Answer, may I ask whether he is aware that the meat trade itself is anxious to have some form of regulation and 126 whether he has had representations to that end?
LORD ST. OSWALDNo, my Lords, we have had no direct representations yet. But we have acted, and I hope that the meat trade, if they were considering such representations, will feel that they have been anticipated.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, is the Minister aware that, although it may be recognised that there is no harmful effect so far as food is concerned, there is a prejudice to the consumer because apparently this substance is being used to tenderise artificially poor meat so that it can be sold as good meat?
LORD ST. OSWALDThe noble Lord is right in saying that the only effect of this is to tender the meat. It does not alter its appearance in any way, and therefore it does not make it more attractive to a potential purchaser in the shop.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, will not the noble Lord agree that the only two items of food we consume to-day which have not been treated in some way are fresh fish and wild fruits?
LORD ST. OSWALDI have not studied the question, and I do not know whether that statement is true, but, even if it were so, I am not quite sure what the noble Lady is leading to.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLWhat the noble Lady is leading to is that we must be vigilant in these matters, because a number of items of food that people buy believing they are absolutely fresh, unadulterated and untreated are now revealed to have been subjected to some treatment. When the noble Lord is asked whether that means that the food becomes dangerous, he comes to the House and says he does not know, and will find out.
LORD ST. OSWALDI do not know whether the noble Lady is claiming that treatment of food is in itself objectionable, whether it is harmful or not, because with that I would not agree.
§ LORD AMWELLMy Lords, can the Minister say whether there is any chance of the meat trade and the food trade generally finding some chemical way of restoring the old-fashioned flavour to foods which some of us miss so much?
§ LORD SHACKLETONMy Lords, is there in fact no control of any kind before this sort of thing is done? I am one of those who have had very anxious representations, both from the meat trade and from doctors who are concerned about this. Is there no way in which this procedure is submitted for approval before it is tried out?
LORD ST. OSWALDNo, my Lords, not in this country; and in fact, so long as it is harmless, I cannot see why there should be.
§ LORD CROOKSurely the Minister is assuming it is harmless. That is the whole point of the Question I put, at the request of doctors and meat people.
§ LORD LATHAMMy Lords, would the noble Lord not agree that the resources of private enterprise are inexhaustible?
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I might perhaps bring this discussion to an end by asking whether the Department proposes to publish regularly reports of the Food Additives Committee.
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, I have no reason to alter the practice at the moment, which is not to publish publicly but to make available such reports.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHI think it is high time, considering that anxiety has been expressed by the public, that the Department gave immediate consideration to the publication of regular reports. And perhaps here the Minister for Science might have a contribution to make.
§ THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)My Lords, the question of publication is not for me, but any scientific implications I certainly would consider.
LORD HAWKEMy Lords, are Her Majesty's Government aware that in those countries where papaw is grown, when meat is served it is customary to start the meal with a slice of papaw? Is this also said to have any harmful effects?
LORD ST. OSWALDI have enjoyed it myself, and we are grateful to my noble friend for drawing the attention of this practice to the House.
§ LORD DOUGLAS OF BARLOCHMy Lords, is it not true that this is an entirely novel procedure, and that, although papain has been used in the manner described, it has never before been injected into living animals, as a result of which many chemical transformations might take place? Secondly, has the noble Lord considered that to sell meat treated in this way would be an offence under the Food and Drugs Act for not giving to the consumer the "nature, substance and quality" which he has demanded?
LORD ST. OSWALDMy Lords, it is quite true that this is a novel process in this country in that it has only recently been introduced, but it is not a novel process, for instance, in the United States of America where it has been carried on for some years with no harmful effects that the Administration has been able to discover. As to the offence, I am not sure whether the noble Lord is having regard to labelling, but in fact the suppliers of this processed meat wish it to be labelled, and they provide a label for that purpose.
§ LORD AMWELLIs this practice carried on in Scandinavia?
§ LORD AMWELLI should like to know.
§ LORD PEDDIEMy Lords, is the noble Lord aware that there is only one firm in this country, an American firm, that goes in for injections, and that it is recognised by the butchers of this country that, unless the animal is killed within a matter of a few seconds following the injection, it results in indescribable cruelty and pain, because of a breakdown of the tissues immediately 129 following the injection? In conducting the examination, that particular aspect should also be considered.
LORD ST. OSWALDNo, my Lords. My information is to the exact contrary. My information is that the substance has no painful or other effects on the animal and is in fact excreted by it.
§ LORD PEDDIEBy the time it is excreted the animal is dead.