§ 4.0 p.m.
§ THE MINISTER OF STATE FOR COLONIAL AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE)My Lords, with your permission I will interrupt the proceedings on London government to reply to the Question asked earlier on by my noble friend Lord Colyton. I will reply in the same words as those used in another place by my right honourable friend in reply to a similar Question. He said:
"After the elections last May, Kenya was given full internal self-government as a prelude to early independence. I have recently had consultations with Kenya Ministers about the further steps to be taken for the transfer of the remaining powers; and I am publishing to-day as a White Paper a joint statement setting out out agreed conclusions.
"In the last few weeks there has been an important new development, which has affected the constitutional arrangements to be made, and which has to be taken into account in the timing of Kenya's independence. I refer to the decision of the Governments of Tanganyika, Uganda and Kenya to form an East African 671 Federation, which, as I said in the House last week, is warmly welcomed by Her Majesty's Government.
"The three East African Governments have already made substantial progress in working out the Constitution for the proposed Federation, and it is their aim to bring it into being before the end of the year, in time to enable the new Federal State to be admitted to the United Nations in the forthcoming session. In order that Kenya's final decision to join this new association may be taken with the full authority and responsibility of a sovereign nation, it will be necessary for her to obtain independence shortly before the inauguration of the Federation.
"In the light of these considerations, I propose to convene a conference in London towards the end of September to settle the final form of Kenya's Constitution. Representatives of the Government and Opposition Parties in the Legislature and of the European Community will be invited to attend.
"To enable the necessary forward planning to be undertaken, not only by the Kenya Government, but also by the Governments of the other East African countries concerned, Her Majesty's Government have informed the Government of Kenya that, subject to the necessary steps being completed in time, Kenya will be granted independence on 12th December."
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am obliged to the noble Marquess for giving us this statement, which is obviously of very great importance. I observe that a further conference is to be called in September and take note of the provisional date. I see that the date which has been fixed is at present quite provisional. May I take it that the Government will give special attention to one or two matters in relation to what has to be done before final independence is declared? Some of us are particularly interested in what will be the outcome of the difficulties which seem to have appeared from time to time about the regional position in Kenya. With regard to the setting up of a general Federation, I shall be extremely interested, and I think many noble Lords will be interested, in what it is proposed 672 to do about our military situation there and about our military establishments. I take it that these and other matters will be discussed at the Conference in September. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten us.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, perhaps it would be convenient if I answered questions one at a time. I think the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, may want to address some to me afterwards. As regards the first question put to me by the noble Earl, the Leader of the Opposition, as to what the regional position will be, I think I should make it perfectly clear that there is no question of making any constitutional changes at the moment. If there are to be any constitutional changes, they, of course, will be a matter for discussion at the independence Conference.
As regards the second question put to me by the noble Lord about the military position, perhaps it would be helpful if I just read out from the White Paper the relevant passage. It reads as follows:
It was agreed that the retention of a British military base in Kenya after independence was not desired by either the British Government or the Kenya Government. It was recognised however that the orderly run-down of British forces after independence would inevitably take time. It was agreed that the withdrawal of these forces should be effected over a period of up to twelve months from the date of Kenya's independence.
§ LORD COLYTONMy Lords, I thank my noble friend for his statement. I think we are all agreed that, though it would have been a good thing to have a much longer period of internal self-government, in the circumstances, and in view of the possibility of establishing an East African Federation which we welcome, the speeding up is inevitable and probably also desirable.
There are two points which I should like to put to my noble friend. The first is this: the regional system which was agreed to by all the delegates to the Lancaster House Conference in 1962, was based on fear of domination by majority groups and especially the fear of a Kikuyu dictatorship. We must all hope that those fears will prove to be illusory, but we cannot be sure. Can we have an undertaking from Her Majesty's Government that all the safeguards for minorities agreed to at Lancaster House will be embodied in the 673 final independence Constitution; and notably the requirement of a 90 per cent. majority in the Senate for constitutional amendments affecting the entrenched rights of individuals and regional and tribal authorities? That was a provision which the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, welcomed at the time of the Conference.
The second point I should like to put to my noble friend is this. Can we have some assurances in regard to the question of citizenship, which is a matter of the utmost importance to those Europeans who wish to stay and play their part in Kenya? It is all the more important because of certain threats which we have read recently by some East African leaders, to leave the Commonwealth in certain circumstances. Will Her Majesty's Government ensure that the final Constitution provides that there shall be no discrimination in matters of land ownership in relation to citizenship?
May I also ask my noble friend this question? Can steps be taken to ensure that facilities should be given for the retention of dual British and Kenyan nationality; and also for the registration of children of European parents born in Kenya as British nationals as well as Kenya citizens, which they would be by birth, in precisely the same way as if they were born in a foreign country? The fact is that with a Commonwealth country at the moment this cannot be done, and I think legislation should, if necessary, be introduced to provide for it, and this legislation should include not only Kenya but the other Commonwealth countries.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I am afraid that the noble Marquess is having a fusillade of questions. May I ask one more which is really very simple and straightforward? In view of the advancement of the date for independence, can the noble Marquess assure the House that satisfactory arrangements will be made for the retirement of British civil servants, with compensation, if they so desire when Kenya becomes independent?
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, does the noble Marquess intend to answer these questions one by one, or does he want to have more?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, if I may, with the permission 674 of the House, I will try to answer the questions that have so far been put to me. I was very glad to hear my noble friend Lord Colyton welcome the idea of a Federation, and of course Her Majesty's Government most heartily welcome it, too. As I think I made clear, or tried to make clear, to the noble Earl the Leader of the Opposition, any constitutional changes must be a matter for the independence conference. My right honourable friend, in his recent talks with Mr. Mboya, did not discuss any specific constitutional changes at all.
§ THE, EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, may I ask the noble Marquess a simple question on that point? Will changes in relationships between the regions and the centre be within the terms of reference of this constitutional conference?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI should prefer to have notice of that question.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I do not want to go into the very important implications of the statements that the noble Marquess has made, but I would urge him to give full consideration to this question of citizenship. It is wondered about very much in the minds of our people in Kenya; and I have always been told, whenever I have asked this question in the past, that it was being left to a final negotiation. I understand that is still the position, but I think Parliament might be given some idea of the general attitude of Her Majesty's Government on this particular point and on other grave points that arise as a result of the ending of our rule in Kenya. I should therefore like to ask the noble Marquess—I feel Parliament ought to be able to express views—whether, arising out of this statement, the Government will give time for a debate on Kenya before the House rises, because we are then going away for two months, and by that time, no doubt, the negotiations with the new Kenya Government will be beginning, if they are not far advanced. I feel that we here in Parliament, at least, who have all the responsibility for the future of these peoples, ought to be allowed to express a view before we go away.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, the question of citizenship 675 was one of the questions put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Colyton, and I had not quite reached it. This is a question as to which the anxieties held in this country are perfectly understood; but again I must explain to your Lordships that this also must be a matter for discussion at the independence conference, and also with the other members of the proposed Federation. My noble friend Lord Salisbury asked about time for a debate on the subject of Kenya. Of course, it is not for me to answer that question; it is something which, no doubt, my noble Leader will have to consider. I cannot comment on that. The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, addressed to me a question about the retirement of British officers. I can assure noble Lords that all the necessary steps are being taken to ensure that expatriate officers serving in Kenya get a fair deal.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I quite realise that I was wrong in putting the question about a debate to the noble Marquess, because that question must be answered by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House, but I should like to ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House now: will he give time for a debate about Kenya before the House rises?
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMOf course, my Lords, my object is to give as much time for as many discussions as I possibly can. At present, it looks as if something will have to be sacrificed to do it. If time were to be given, obviously there must be discussions through the usual channels; but if I can accommodate such a debate I shall be very anxious to do so.
§ LORD OGMOREMy Lords, may I thank the Government for that statement, and welcome it on behalf of noble Lords on these Benches? I should like to ask the noble Marquess one question. Will he see that his Department, and the other Departments of the British Government, do everything possible to sustain and encourage the East African University, which is the key to development in this huge area?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEI will certainly take note of the noble Lord's point, and bring it to the attention of my right honourable friend.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONMy Lords, may I put this point to the Minister of State, relevant to the importance of having a debate? I appreciate that that question cannot be answered to-day, but on the other hand, could the Minister of State give us this assurance—which I am sure would be most emphatically asked for by all quarters of the House if a debate took place. The arrangements which were embodied in Orders in Council and local legislation after the Lancaster House meeting provided for all the safeguards and the rights of the regional organisation, and the very stringent conditions required as to any change. It was that settlement which made the difference between the possibility of great tribal outbreaks and, really, war—and it is all the more important if British forces, which have in the last resort been able to keep order, are to be withdrawn. Can we have a firm assurance that, while the House is in Recess, Her Majesty's Government will not alter the provisions of the regional constitution without the full assent of all those who agreed to those conditions at the time?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I referred in the statement which I have just made to the composition of the delegation which would be coming to the United Kingdom in September. It will be composed of representatives of the Government and Opposition Parties in the Legislature, and also representatives of the European community. Therefore, all interests concerned will have the opportunity of expressing their opinion then. Does that answer the noble Earl?
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONNo; with great respect, that does not in the least answer the point I put to the noble Marquess. Of course, we realise that everybody is going to be there and will have the chance of speaking, just as they had at Lancaster House; but at Lancaster House there was an agreement, and that agreement is now the Constitution accepted in Kenya by all the different tribes and interests. Of course, this may be discussed, but what we want is an assurance from the Minister of State that Her Majesty's Government will not alter what has been agreed and approved in Kenya and in this House without the assent of all those who were parties to that agreement at that time—all of them.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEThe noble Earl, no doubt, is including ourselves in this.
§ THE EARL OF SWINTONYes, certainly including ourselves; but not that we should have the right to change what has been agreed.
§ THE EARL OF LISTOWELMy Lords, I think that we on the Opposition side should also like a little more light on the subject, and if we cannot get the light we want by question and answer then we would join other noble Lords in asking for a debate. And, of course, we want a chance of looking at the White Paper before the statement.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, this, of course, is an extremely important question. As your Lordships, I am sure, are well aware, the last thing I should wish to do would be in any way to mislead the House, and I should much prefer, subject to your Lordships' permission, to ask for notice of this question, so that I might have the opportunity of discussion with my right honourable friend.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I do not wish to prolong this discussion, but perhaps after the noble Viscount the Leader of the House has had the necessary discussions with all those concerned he would make a further statement to the House at an early date about the prospects of a debate. We do not want it to run on. We have now only little more than three weeks before the House rises, and I think the House ought to know at a very early date whether there is to be a debate or not, because the matters concerned are very grave indeed.
§ VISCOUNT HAILSHAMMy Lords, I will certainly convey that to my noble friend the Chief Whip, and I certainly should wish to keep the House fully informed.