§ THE EARL OF SANDWICHMy Lords, with apologies to my noble friend the Leader of the House and to noble Lords for postponing it till to-day from Monday, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they now intend to place an embargo on sales of arms and equipment to South Africa following the Security Council resolution of December 4; what is the estimated loss to British manufacturers; and what broad categories of arms and equipment are now deemed not to be subject to the Security Council resolution.]
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, following the Security Council resolution of December 4, as well as the resolution of August 7, the position of Her Majesty's Government is that we shall not export to South Africa arms, or material and equipment for the manufacture of arms, which would enable the policy of apartheid to be enforced. We made it clear in the Security Council that we reserved our position in regard to the continuing supply to South Africa of arms and equipment appropriate to the Republic's right to self-defence under Article 51 of the Charter particularly in view of our arrange- 246 ment for co-operation in the protection of the sea routes. I am afraid that I cannot give any estimate of the possible loss to British manufacturers.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, may I ask my noble friend if it is a fact that every Government, whether British, British Commonwealth, British Colonial or foreign, whether governed by arbitrary Government or democratic Government, or by any race, must supply its police with what might be called police arms for the maintenance of law and order? Is it proposed to sell such arms to South Africa? And is it or is it not proposed to continue to supply them to Basutoland?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I made it plain, I think, in my first answer, that the policy of Her Majesty's Government is not to export to South Africa arms, or material or equipment that could be made into arms, which would enable the policy of apartheid to be enforced. I think that that answers the question.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALENo, my Lords. May I ask my noble friend to face this fact. It seems to me that he is evading it. Short of interfering with the policy of another country, which may or may not be a good thing to do, does it not remain a fact that police must be supplied with some arms, even in Britain, where we seldom use arms and deplore the use of them? Is it not a fact that the Labour Government and the present Government, and the next Labour Government, will be very remiss if they do not supply the police with arms for the maintenance of law and order? And is it our intention to deny South Africa and Basutoland the use of such arms?
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I ask him whether he does not think that it would be absolutely deplorable if Her Majesty's Government supplied the South African Government with arms for this purpose?
§ LORD CARRINGTONCertainly, my Lords, that is the policy of Her Majesty's Government, as I have now said on two occasions. I am not trying to evade anything. I think that my noble friend is mistaken. What I said was that if the arms which would be 247 supplied to South Africa were capable of enforcing apartheid, then they would not be supplied.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, is any pistol so capable?
§ LORD CARRINGTONEvery weapon is considered on its merits.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEWhat weapons will be supplied and what weapons will not be supplied to the police?
§ LORD BOOTHBYNone.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House, in view of the difficulty in differentiating between weapons that are capable of being used for defence and weapons that are capable of being used for internal intimidation, and in view of the fact that spare parts are being supplied from this country to South Africa—for example, for the Saracen armed personnel carrier, a weapon which has been used in South Africa for intimidation—whether the Government will reconsider the whole question of the sale of such weapons and spare parts, of any kind whatever?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, the policy of Her Majesty's Government has been reconsidered very recently, in the light of the decision we have to take on what to do on the resolution before the United Nations. I do not think that I can undertake that we will examine it again; but with regard to the applications for spare parts, of course they are all examined on their merits.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEMy Lords, will my noble friend say what they are going to do about Basutoland, and how law and order can be preserved there without police arms?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, perhaps my noble friend will put down a special Question on Basutoland.
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEIt will be too late.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, will the embargo include sporting guns and 12, 16 and 20-bore shotguns, which technically could do 248 harm? If we prevent their export, we may lose some very valuable markets, because British craftsmen still make the best sporting guns in the world.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think it is very difficult, in question and answer of this kind, to say, off the cuff, which weapons will be and which will not be exported. What I have tried to do this afternoon is to explain to your Lordships the principles on which the Government's policy is based.
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, will the Minister try to enforce the embargo in such a way that it will not harm that very valuable trade?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I will certainly look at that point.
§ EARL ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord the Leader of the House if the position is this? We have certain strategic defence commitments with South Africa: they are particularly naval. Would it not be quite reasonable if, apart from those commitments, the Government could interpret their Answer to-day as excluding anything else which could be used, inland and internally?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, the policy of Her Majesty's Government, I must say again, is that we will not export to the Republic of South Africa arms which can be capable of being used for the purpose of carrying out the policy of apartheid. That is the position of the Government at the present time.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHICHESTERMy Lords, may I ask the noble Lord whether he is certain that the Government can draw this distinction between arms that can be used for naval protection and those that can be used for internal intimidation? May I ask him to draw the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the possible loss, not economic but in other fields, of the continuation of the supply of these arms? In this context, may I ask him to draw to the attention of the Minister a statement made by the Nigerian representative to the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association at Kuala Lumpur, in the course of which he says:
Nigerians cannot understand how the British Government can claim not to know that 249 military aircraft which it is sending can be used over the veldt as well as over the sea routes around the Cape, and if the British Government continue to grant export permits for sending military aircraft to South Africa, it could give rise to a situation where many African States were forced with reluctance to envisage leaving the Commonwealth, when the former Mother Country acts towards her African children thus.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I am beginning to wish that the right reverend Prelate and his friends on my left would fire at my noble friends on my right and leave me out of this because I am obviously in a position halfway between the two. With regard to the right reverend Prelate's question, I have seen the statement to which he referred. All I would say is that I think we must be sensible about this. No one believes for one single moment that the South African Government are buying Buccaneers, extremely expensive aircraft, for the purpose of enforcing a policy of apartheid.
§ THE EARL OF SANDWICHMy Lords, my noble friend has just said that Ministers have been in recent consultation about this matter. Must they not have decided at that time what type of arms on which to put an embargo and what type of arms may continue to be exported; and in these circum stances why is it so difficult to answer the last part of my Question, which asks merely for the broad categories of arms and equipment which are now deemed not to be subject to the Security Council resolution? If my noble friend is not able to answer the Question to-day, will he undertake, in view of the controversy which is apparent in your Lordships' House on this subject, to clarify the whole situation after the Recess?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, of course, I will do everything to help my noble friend. But what has happened is that Her Majesty's Government have established a policy in principle, and every issue must be decided on the basis of this principle.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, have we not arrived at a most curious position, where noble Lords opposite are seeking to bring pressure to bear on their own representatives in the Government to export arms to South Africa in the interests of the arms manufacturers in this country—?
§ LORD FRASER OF LONSDALEOh, no—bunkum!
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLThat is what is in the Question on the Order Paper—despite the fact that the United Nations have recommended that this action should not be taken. It is absolutely terrible that in the middle of the 20th century, noble Lords should make these speeches.
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, that does not seem to be either a question or addressed to me.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLThe noble Lord asked for help.
§ LORD BARNBYMy Lords, in view of my noble Leader's urging that we should be reasonable, and in spite of my noble friend Lord Boothby's decision, on behalf of the Government, what policy should be, and in the interests of employment, with due regard to the noble Lady, should we not agree that the dynamic buoyancy of South African economy will quickly enable them to provide for themselves all the arms that are needed for their own defence? Would it not seem, therefore, that this whole embargo complex is an aspect of the propaganda developed by the Afro-Asian bloc in the United Nations with the object of subordinating throughout Africa the interests of the whites to the non-whites? And, further, would he not say that there is in this propaganda a distinct resemblance to the current blackmail campaign being carried on by Arabs against the Hebrews?
§ LORD BOOTHBYMy Lords, before the noble Lord replies, may I ask him to bear in mind that Purdey's are at the moment in no urgent need of financial assistance?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think it may well be true, as my noble friend behind me says, that in the end the South African Government will be able to manufacture their own arms. But I do not think that is the point. The point is that Her Majesty's Government do not think it right to sell these arms for the purpose of enabling the policy of apartheid to be enforced.
THE LORD BISHOP OF CHESTERMy Lords, may I ask the Leader of the 251 House to take note that there is undoubtedly a growing public concern about this matter, as is evidenced by a recent resolution passed on Monday by the Executive Committee of the British Council of Churches? May I ask, therefore, that Her Majesty's Government will reconsider their policy in the light of these views?
§ LORD CARRINGTONMy Lords, I think I have answered that question already. I will, of course, take note of what the right reverend Prelate says; and I have noticed the resolution to which he has drawn attention.