HL Deb 08 May 1961 vol 231 cc4-6

2.41 p.m.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Question was as follows:

To ask Her Majesty's Government if they will give the reason why the Schoolmasters' Association is not a member of the Burnham Committee.]

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND MINISTER FOR SCIENCE (VISCOUNT HAILSHAM)

My Lords, the Teachers' Panel of the Burnham Committee is constituted by types of school. It has been the aim of successive Governments to avoid sectional representation on the Burnham Committee, whether by sex, by subjects taught or any other distinction. The very large majority of teachers in primary and secondary modern schools, from which the National Association of Schoolmasters draw their members, are represented by the National Union of Teachers, which has about three times as many schoolmaster members as the National Association of Schoolmasters.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, is it then the case that members of the Schoolmasters' Association are represented on the Burnham Committee if they happen to be there on account of the school they serve in? And, if not, does not the membership of this Association represent a substantial element, both actually and relatively? And in a country where talking is the way of settling matters, is it not better to have them in rather than out?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, as regards the last part of the question, this particular issue has, I know, been separately examined by every Minister of Education since the late Lord Halifax in 1922, and they have all come to the conclusion to which my right honourable friend has come. As regards the first part of the question, I believe it is a rule of the National Association of Schoolmasters that they must not belong to the National Union of Teachers. That is their own rule: but whether or not any of them are also members of one of the five other bodies represented on the Burnham Committee, I could not say—certainly not without notice.

BARONESS SUMMERSKILL

Is it not a fact that the only difference in policy between the Schoolmasters' Association and the National Union of Teachers is that the Schoolmasters' Association is opposed to equal pay?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, that may well be the case, but I do not think I answer on behalf of either of those two bodies.

LORD FRASER OF LONSDALE

My Lords, does my noble friend the Leader of the House imply that the present Minister has had this matter under consideration, or is he merely following precedent? And if the latter, would he give it another "think"?

VISCOUNT HAILSHAM

My Lords, I do not think he is merely following precedent. He answered a debate in another place quite recently, which indicates to me that he has had it separately under consideration. The last previous new "think" was given by his immediate predecessor, and the one before that by me.