§ 2.41 p.m.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government what changes, if any, the "Social Harmonisation" proposals of the Rome Treaty would require in (a) the provision and (b) the method of financing of British social services.]
§ THE MINISTER WITHOUT PORTFOLIO (THE EARL OF DUNDEE)My Lords, the Treaty of Rome provides for the introduction of a social security system to enable periods of insurance completed under the legislation of two or more of the members of the European Economic Community to be added together for the purpose of determining the right to benefit and to guarantee the payment of benefit by each member of the Community to migrant workers and their dependants who are resident in the territories of the other members. The Treaty provides also for close co-operation between the members in the field of social security and declares that the functioning of the Common Market will favour the harmonisation of the social systems of the members. While Her Majesty's Government understand that the Community has already adopted a regulation establishing a comprehensive system of reciprocity in the field of social security, they have no information about any proposals for the harmonisation of the social systems of the members.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, would the noble Earl not agree that this is a most material factor in considering the desirability or otherwise of entering the Common Market; that it is one of the matters that ought to be considered by the Government and its effect on those services made known to the general public before we come to any decision?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEYes, my Lords; I think we could all agree with that. We must distinguish between reciprocity and harmonisation. As the noble Lord knows, there have always been reciprocal bilateral arrangements between most of the countries in 284 Western Europe, including Great Britain, which have nothing to do with the Common Market at all; and the recent regulation in the Common Market about reciprocity does hardly anything more than recognise the bilateral reciprocal arrangements that already existed. The noble Lord's Question asks about harmonisation, which of course is quite different. That means assimilating the rates of benefit and the means of raising the money, and nothing whatever has been so far proposed about that.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, may I just ask whether the noble Earl is aware of the statements that are being made by way of propaganda in favour of entering the Common Market, that social services as well as wages in some of these cases are higher than in this country now? Can he give us information whether that is correct or not?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, some social services—we had a long discussion about old age pensions in Germany, I remember, not long ago—are much higher than they are here; but they all vary between the different members of the Common Market. The various payments for different kinds of benefit—retirement pensions, sickness benefit, family allowances and so on—are all different. Nothing has been done yet to harmonise them. The noble Lord, Lord Silkin, was no doubt thinking of Article 117 of the Treaty, which states that:
… the Common Market … will favour the harmonisation of social systems".But no practical proposals have yet been made to give effect to that, and in the event of our becoming a member of the Common Market such proposals could not be without our approval, because they would have to be unanimous in order to give effect to them.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, the thing that puzzles me is this. I believe most of us are in the same position as Her Majesty's Government in thinking very hard about this matter. But if we are to have fair competition within the Common Market such matters as the social services must be taken into consideration, and my question is really directed to ascertaining what consideration Her Majesty's Government are giving to all 285 these matters at a time when, presumably, they are seriously considering the advisability or otherwise of entering the Common Market.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, of course I can assure the noble Lord that Her Majesty's Government are considering those issues. One point which the noble Lord probably has in mind is that most of the contributions in European countries are made by employers and workers, and there are practically no State contributions such as are made in this country. But it is right, I think, to point out, in considering this matter, that nothing practical could be done to harmonise these social security arrangements without the unanimous consent of all members of the Common Market; so that in the event of this country's becoming a member of it nothing could be done without our consent.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, in view of the fact that these reciprocal arrangements have been in operation for some years, and it is a continuing process, I am quite sure that both sides of the House will accept that part of the noble Earl's statement. But surely what is of the utmost concern to both sides of the House, indeed to the whole country and to the Commonwealth, is what will be the effect upon their own social security systems. It is rather surprising to learn that the noble Earl has come to the House to-day as ignorant of the future as we are. Indeed, is it therefore possible that the Ministers are going to go to the Prime Ministers of the Commonwealth countries, as we have been told during the last two days, to discuss these matters without being better briefed than the noble Earl is to-day?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, I do not think that the noble Lady has propenly apprehended the Answer which I gave to your Lordships. What I told your Lordships was that so far no proposals for the harmonisation of social security in the Common Market have been adumbrated at all; and there is therefore nothing to consider. Why should we consider hypothetical questions which have not arisen and which, if they did arise, could not be discussed or given effect to without our consent?
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, surely the noble Earl will agree that the whole concept of the Common Market cannot be regarded at this stage as hypothetical. This is having the most serious repercussions, not only in this country but throughout the Commonwealth; and for him to say that what is finally decided is a hypothetical matter surely must fill people with a certain apprehension. What I am asking is this: is there any chance of any further consideration being given to this matter so that the Ministers whose duty it is to explain the matter to the Commonwealth will be more fully briefed?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, the noble Lady seems quite incapable of distinguishing between one point and another. There is nothing hypothetical about the Common Market; there is everything hypothetical about the harmonisation of social security arrangements under the Common Market. That is hypothetical, and surely your Lordships are capable of appreciating that simply distinction.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I must insist upon putting this further supplementary to the noble Earl. He really cannot slide away in this matter from something which is of tremendous importance. Surely even he can appreciate the importance of social security, let us say, to my political Patty when they are considering the repercussions of the Common Market. Perhaps he could address himself to that isolated point. If it does not appeal to him, if he is not concerned with it, I can assure him that the Labour Party in this country, when they are considering whether or not we should join the Common Market, are concerned with it.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEMy Lords, yes; but the noble Lady has done nothing to question the fact that the possibility of harmonising social services is entirely hypothetical. No practical proposal has yet been put forward among the members and there is therefore no call to consider anything. With regard to sliding away from the question, I feel that the noble Lady would beat me in tobogganing any day.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I must say that the noble Earl's answers make me a little 287 anxious about the conversations which are being preferred at the moment either to a meeting of the Commonwealth Prime Ministers—
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEConversations?
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHThe conversations that are going on. The answers make me anxious about those. It also makes me anxious about the possibility, as I take it from the Prime Minister's answer, that they would be formulating Cabinet policy before consulting Parliament. That is what I am anxious about. Is it not therefore strongly to be pressed that there should be, as was requested by the noble Earl, Lord Swinton, the other day, a White Paper in which we shall at least get something which is not hypothetical and which we can consider—something which we hope will be at the full disposal of those representatives who are now negotiating in the Commonwealth?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEI would remind the noble Viscount that the Question on the Paper which we are now dealing with is confined to asking
…what changes, if any, the 'Social Harmonisation' proposals of the Rome Treaty would require in … the provision and … the method of financing of British social services".The short answer to that is "None".
§ LORD BALFOUR OF INCHRYEMy Lords, may I ask the Minister this question? He quotes the unanimity rule on the harmonisation proposal, but is he sure that there are not certain "escape" provisions within the Treaty of Rome from the rule that all members must be unanimous before any harmonisation proposals can come into effect?
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEAll I meant was that a definite regulation, in order to become binding on the Common Market, would have to be unanimously agreed to. All the members would have to agree to it. Therefore, in the event of our becoming a member, no regulation could be made arising out of Article 117 without our consent.
§ LORD SILKINMy Lords, I do not want to carry this matter any further to-day, but I do not think the noble 288 Earl has quite got what was behind my Question. It may be the fault of the wording. But I will put down a further Question to elucidate the matter.
§ THE EARL OF DUNDEEI am most anxious to understand everything that is behind the noble Lord's Question, and I have done my best to elaborate the subject, perhaps a little too far.